Transcript of the live chat session that took place Thursday, May 21, 1998. These sessions are normally scheduled for 12 noon-1 PM Eastern Time every Thursday. Please note that the US is now on Daylight Savings Time. So in international terms, we are on at GMT -4 instead of GMT -5.
These sessions are hosted by Richard Seltzer. If you would like to receive email reminders of our chat sessions, simply send a blank email message to businessonthewebchats-subscribe@yahoogroups.com or go to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/businessonthewebchats and sign up there.
For transcripts of previous sessions and a list of future topics, click here .
For an article on how to make "business chat" work (based on this experience), click here .
Since the chat itself happens at a rapid pace, it's often difficult to note interesting facts in particular URLs as they appear on-line. Here's a place to take a more leisurely look. I've rearranged some of the pieces to try to capture the various threads of discussion (which sometimes get lost in the rush of live chat).
Please send email with your follow-on questions and comments, and suggestions for topics we should focus on in future sessions. So long as the volume of email responses is manageable, I'll post the most pertinent ones here for all to see.
Richard Seltzer -- All -- as you connect, please introduce yourselves and let us know your interests. That will help us get started quickly.
Rui -- I'm based out of belmont CA, I just wanted to have this chat up and see what's being said.
Deb Schaffer -- Hi! My name is Deb Schaffer and I'm an Instructional Technologist with JDEdwards World Solutions Company, a software manufacturer. I'm interested in how to communicate with our field organization for information and training.
Richard Seltzer -- Deb and Rui -- do either of you have experience with MOOs, either as a visitor or a creator?
Deb Schaffer -- No. I've been keeping track of what you're doing, though I haven't been able to participate because of other deadlines and meetings. This chat falls into mid-morning for me - prime meeting time! I'm interested in the group's opinions on this medium.
Richard Seltzer -- Deb -- Glad you were able to make it today. The demos we did over the last two sessions were exhilarating and illuminating. But not everyone was able to connect. Apparently, corporate firewalls can be a problem. That's one of the issues I'd like to address today -- are those firewall access problems inherent in the basic software or are there workarounds? Are there other ways of producing similar results without running into those problems? (Like not all chat today is IRC-based).
Deb Schaffer -- Perhaps I didn't miss as much as I thought! I am also connecting from behind a corporate firewall.
Bob Zwick -- Hello everyone. Bob here - independent consultant in Dallas, Texas
Richard Seltzer -- Welcome, Bob Zwick. I'm glad to see that the distance ed chat program (Tuesdays from noon to 1 here at web-net) has been going so well. What do you have scheduled to focus on next Tuesday?
Bob Zwick -- Next week's Distance education chat (Tue 12-1pm EST) will try to concentrate on Course Development
Richard Seltzer -- rhiggins -- I see you on the list of "occupants." Welcome. While we have never met, I've heard that you are an expert in MOOs and related matters. What business is Cybercorp in? And do you use MOOs as part of that business?
Dr. Rob Higgins -- Greetings. Cybercorp Inc. operates GYMNASIA VIRTUALES on online school and is in the business of web development generally (related to online communication and interaction)
Dr. Rob Higgins -- I'll just try a link here http://www.cybercorp.net/gymv
Richard Seltzer -- Welcome, Dr. Higgins. I've been tempted by the class on on-line communities that Cybercorp offers. What tools do you use for delivery of your courses? Email and forum? Chat? Do you also use MOOs (or are you considering doing so)?
tracy -- Hello all. Tracy Marks, Internet trainer in the Boston area. ....Glad you made it here, Rob.
Richard Seltzer -- Welcome, Tracy. Thanks again for all the help and advice regarding MOOs and for acting as our native guide and interpreter last week.
tracy -- I took Rob Higgins' Teaching Online course a year ago. We met via forums and webchat and in his Moo, and explored other interactive options as well. I highly recommend the course, though it's time intensive!
Dr. Rob Higgins -- Presently I'm helping create a KnowledgeShop using InterShop software. We do stuff in Java and JavaScript. There is a Co-Creation area for consumer oriented product specification and development
Richard Seltzer -- Dr. Higgins -- Do you tie the real-time (synchronous) discussions in your MOO back into your threaded forum-style (asynchronous) discussions? e.g., do you include edited transcripts from your MOO sessions back in your forum space?
Dr. Rob Higgins -- I've done that on an as needed basis. Participants are encouraged to capture their MOO interaction and post it in their working areas in COW
Richard Seltzer -- Dr. Higgins -- pardon my ignorance, but what is COW? Is that a general MOO-related storage capability? Or is that just a space or object that you have defined at your particular MOO?
Dr. Rob Higgins -- COW is Conferencing On the Web ... mentioned earlier
Richard Seltzer -- Dr. Higgins -- what is a "KnowledgeShop"? Is that perhaps commercial software based on the MOO environment?
Richard Seltzer -- Welcome, Madeleine and others. Please introduce yourselves and let us know your interests. We're diving very quickly into our discussion about MOOs.
Madeleine Butschler -- All, Hello everyone, I am a Learning Strategist consultant from Vancouver. I am developing a database of existing training products and services as a resource for matching companies' training needs. I am interested in the range of features which may be associated with MOO's. We saw a text based version. Are there any with images or streaming video? (Sorry I'm late and if this is a redundant question...)
Jonathan -- hello, I'm late, but I'm here. I'm from DIGITAL and I'm working with Online Environs and the Window NT Wizards group to set up a Webcast / Web community approach.
Richard Seltzer -- Welcome, Jonathan. Is the on-line community project back on track?
Jonathan -- Richard, No, not really. The on-line community project via Phil Grove is not really happening. Gregg Laird wanted to move ahead with his cave idea. I outlined a more open community-driven structure that we worked on, but he is more interested web casts. So... I'm helping and will learn something. I'll bring you up to date off-line.
Richard Seltzer -- Welcome, Tom Dadakis. Do you see ways that you might want to use MOO environments for corporate training? Would firewalls be a problem in your case? Or would the training all take place on an intranet?
tracy -- I hope to hear Rob's (Dr Higgins') answers to your excellent questions, Richard...and would like to know more about business applications of Moo also...
Richard Seltzer -- All -- I'm trying to determine 1) can MOO technology evolve to include the ease-of-use that is necessary for a business environment? 2) are there any early examples or that? or are there any major development projects of that kind in the works? or 3) are there fundamental limitations to this approach (e.g., does it absolutely require the use of telnet, and hence run headon into the firewall problem)?
tracy -- I'm curious...is there anyone else here who has used Moo in either teaching or business, and if so, what is your experience of it and opinion about its viability for these purposes?
Dr. Rob Higgins -- Well, there's really not much training needed to just chat in a MOO. But the real point is that MOO's are flexible programmable environments where you can do a lot to create the experience as you go or pre-prepare active environments. I wrote a related paper last year: Milking the MOO COW: Combining Interim Technologies for Learning in Cyberspace.
tracy-- In regard to business applications, I would think that the technical know-how and time demands are on those who set up the Moo...or build rooms in it. The learning skills are not too demanding for users chatting and moving around....
Richard Seltzer -- Dr. Higgins -- thanks to the pointer to your paper. Can you give us a quick example of the kinds of things you can do with such a programmable environment that make it valuable for you and your customers?
Richard Seltzer -- Dr. Higgins -- as for training, I found that after an hour or so, I was reasonably comfortable talking in the MOO environment. But learning how to use today's Web-based chat systems is almost instantaneous -- it's intuitive. What can you program into those rooms to give them added value? And are there things that your visitors can do there on their own that they benefit from?
Dr. Rob Higgins -- MOO's are an interim technology. The represent conceptually what is to come. They are virtual environments with modifiable realities.
Dr. Rob Higgins -- The main idea is that a MOO represent what is to come in terms of shared active programmable environments. If you have a product, you may have software that presents it in detail with active animations and cut-away views, etc. Imagine being able to go into that presentation and guide your prospective clients through it. Then perhaps, they could ask question of you, other visitors, or the product itself (programmed to respond).
Madeleine Butschler -- Dr Higgins, Thanks for your response. Yes, that does sound very exciting.
tracy -- Rob/Dr. Higgins - about the example you gave, demonstrating software etc with active animations and cut-away views in a Moo. Aren't the programming skills for doing this in a Moo more demanding and technical than those involved for doing an online presentation, for example, using PowerPoint?
Dr. Rob Higgins -- Tracy, the environments of the future will have numerous auto-authoring tools that will likely be easier to use than PowerPoint and others.
Richard Seltzer -- All -- my impression is that the MOO environment offers interesting advantages over ordinary chat (I'd like to hear concrete examples of how this is in fact the case). I believe that the role-play and objects and the general playful environment could and should encourage more people to actively participate; and I believe that being able to tailor an environment and make it evolve to suit a recurring audience over time, could also be very valuable. But 1) today, it seems that you need to learn a rudimentary set of commands -- there doesn't seem to be a point-and-click equivalent, as there is for chat today. and 2) firewalls get in the way.
tracy -- Richard, IRC also requires separate software and rudimentary commands...and it's also my impression that businesses don't often use IRC...
Richard Seltzer -- Tracy -- Yes, companies do not use the raw original IRC. They do however use IRC-based Web chat applications for discussions inside their firewalls. And they use non-IRC, HTML based chat (like this) when they need to include in discussions people both inside and outside their companies. In both cases, what they use is simple, intuitive, and point and click. The original IRC chat established the capability. Then software developers took it to another level of ease of use and it was adopted by business. Do we see any similar evolution for MOO software (both server-side and client-side)?
Richard Seltzer -- Dr. Higgins -- Do you know of any auto-authoring tools (or prototypes of such) that are available today? Or do you know of companies that are working on this? And by authoring, do you just mean ease of creation of MOO environments? or are you also talking about ease of use for the ordinary visitor/participant?
Dr. Rob Higgins -- Richard, yes, auto-authoring aids to help both the development of content and of user-aids. I'm involved in the early development of these things in Java (but then so is a 16yr kid out in B.C. :)
Richard Seltzer -- Dr. Higgins -- is there any place on the Web where we can see or read about these auto-authoring aids?
Bob Zwick -- Doc Higgins - you said that MOO is interim. Does that mean you see it being replaced by server based applications or Java programs that fundtion like MOOs do ?
Dr. Rob Higgins -- Bob, of course. The Palace is an example of a graphical MOO type environment with a lot of extra little tools to help build things
Richard Seltzer -- All -- part of the potential of MOOs (from my limited, novice perspective) is what looks to be the possibility of incrementally adding graphics, VRML, multi-media -- creating worlds that can be perceived and navigated with minimal equipment and bandwidth, but that can also be experienced more fully with a fully-loaded system. Once again, for that dream to become reality, the developers would need to take a pragmatic approach. Anything involving streaming audio and video would run right into the firewall problem (which is a matter of policy for all major corporations -- a self-defense measure). Can those kinds of enhanced capabilities be added to MOOs without running into firewalls?
Richard Seltzer -- Dr. Higgins -- I suspect that a number of people who would be interested in taking your courses need to connect from behind a corporate firewall. Have you found that a problem? Do you have a workaround?
Dr. Rob Higgins -- Yes, I have a work around. I helped some participants from FEMA get in to GymVMOO, and a few others too :) But often I tell participants to lobby for change in that there is no valid reason for restricting access to MOOs (there is no threat to the internal network. )
Richard Seltzer -- Dr. Higgins -- At large corporations, there is no point in trying to lobby for changes in firewall settings. That's simply a waste of time. In general, IRC-style chat, telnet connections, and streaming audio and video through a firewall are prohibited. Is there any implementation of MOO or any MOO client that does not depend on being able to telnet? This is essential if MOO is to become widely used for business.
Dr. Rob Higgins -- No, business must change to allow remote connections. Perhaps some new packet protocol will be need. Otherwise, the business is denying itself access to knowledge (a big no no in the modern era)
Richard Seltzer -- Dr. Higgins -- You are asking the mountain to come to Mohammed. It won't happen. Large corporations have far too much at risk (in terms of intellectual property and system resources) to allow unnecessary holes in their firewalls. (There are a lot of very clever people out there who can figure out how to use such holes for their entertainment or for pure maliciousness if not for profit).
Dr. Rob Higgins -- Richard,
as I indicated, and I'll clarify, the Internet is INTERIM technology. We
can't shackle ourselves with its limitations of today. Perhaps new protocols
will make the big bulky smoke-stack
industries feel more secure. If they don't find a way. They will not
succeed.
Richard Seltzer -- Dr. Higgins -- Those are visionary statements. Yes, the Internet is interim technology. But all technology is "interim." There is always a next step. Sometimes that next step is imminent, and sometimes it is generations away. Sometimes the barriers are technological and sometimes they are human/policy-related. I have every confidence that technology-only issues can/will be resolved. But human/policy issues may never be resolved. That is why I don't believe in plowing ahead with technology-only solutions. I want to see results in my life-time. Hence I look for workarounds, for practical ways to implement what needs to be done, even if it may not be technologically pure or elegant. I'd like to see a way to create a MOO environment and open it to the world, without using telnet. Is that possible? Do you know anyone working on it?
Dr. Rob Higgins -- Richard. That is why I wrote the Milking the MOO COW paper. So others wouldn't be turned off by the interim technologies. There is no security risk in allowing external connections from a network to the Internet via telnet. But, to start a work around, there is the Cup-O-MUD Java client that is implemented from the WWW browser GymVMOO
Richard Seltzer -- Dr. Higgins -- The perception in corporate America is that there are considerable risks to allowing telnet through firewalls. (And Digital is very heavily involved in research about such security related matters). But regardless of the reality, the perception is more than sufficent to slam that door. The risks are perceived to be absolutely enormous, and almost in large corporations very very few people have any clue of what the benefits might be.
Dr. Rob Higgins -- Well it's a matter off education. Big corps that don't change will not survive.
Richard Seltzer -- Dr. Higgins -- No, it only becomes a question of survival when business utility and benefit is demonstrated. When one company uses this technology in such a way that they get significant competitive advantage, then all others must follow. But where is that one example? And is this not a case like the telephone -- great technology, but it's only of value if many people are equipped to get calls. If very few people can do this -- and none of the largest corporations -- then regardless of its technical superiority, it offers no business advantage.
tracy -- Rob/Dr. Higgins....does the cup of mud web-based java client for connecting to the Moo involve telnet at all? Perhaps this web-based entry to the Moo is part of what Richard is getting at, in regard to issues of easier access....it appears to require only java, just as many chat rooms do.
Dr. Rob Higgins -- no, it would be best to start the Cup-O-MUD in another window
Richard Seltzer -- Dr. Higgins -- my impression is that the Java-based implementations run telnet in the background. Is that the case? If so, then Java does nothing to solve the underlying problem.
Deb Schaffer-- Our firewall is secure against telnet! This is only a problem if we decide to offer online training to clients.
Dr. Rob Higgins -- What I'm saying is that it is not insecure to allow someone inside a corp to telnet out. But it is insecure to let the world telnet in. So, run your MOO on a separate server, not even on your internal net.
Rui -- Every corporation I've been envolved has always been security crazy. If you eveb imply that your inabling telnet mangers has go crazy. Its hard getting new techonlogies into a company. The web made it because of the hype.
Dr. Rob Higgins Dr. Rob Higgins-- Well, the telephone was a curiosity never thought to replace the telegraph as a business tool either.
Rui -- I'm definitely going to check out moo, I had very heard of it.
Richard Seltzer -- Dr. Higgins -- One of the fundamental security policies at Digital and at most major corporations is to prohibit telnet in any direction. That is a fact of life. Running a MOO on a separate server outside a firewall would enable users not behind firewalls to connect, but would lock out your own people (behind your own firewall). It's the same problem with IRC-based chat. That's why I use this HTML style chat software instead.
Dr. Rob Higgins -- There are so many possible solutions, but none will come to pass if the corporation does not have the vision to do it. Cup-O-MUD does not run telnet in the background. Java was designed for networking and the creation of protocols if necessary.
Richard Seltzer -- All -- keep in mind that I am a great fan of MOO. I'm very new to this, learning about it through these sessions that we've been having, but I see tremendous potential. This could be how you construct an on-line stadium/convention center for meetings and on-line interactions of all kinds. But to get there, we need to face the security perception and ease-of-use issues head on.
Richard Seltzer -- Dr. Higgins -- where can I learn more about Cup-o-Mud and how that fits into the MOO equation?
Dr. Rob Higgins -- more about Cup-O-MUD via links at GymVMOO
Bob Zwick -- Doc Higgins, Is Cup-O-Mud a public domain client or something you produced ? Can it be used to enter other MOOs ?
Madeleine Butschler -- All, This discussion reminds me of a similar theme I have learned about from multimedia classes I am taking. Do you build a product which will run on the more sophisticated equipment you have, do you aim it at what is the most commonly held hardware and software, or do you aim it for what is being most popularly purchased right now. While no panacea was provided, it was suggested in the class that you might end up having to develop two versions and prepare to continually respond to trends!!!???
Richard Seltzer -- Madeleine -- that sounds tough, but realistic. On the other hand, if we can get around the telnet/firewall issue, I get the sense (please confirm/deny) that you could build a MOO that would be accessible both text-only and with full-blown multi-media. One MOO environment for two generations of Internet development?
Deb Schaffer -- I'll need to work on that Cup-o-Mud client. Can't get it to work! Have to go. Thanks for the interesting discussion!
Rui -- I'm definitely going to check out moo, I had never heard of it.
Richard Seltzer -- All -- please send me email with your followup messages and pointers (all the things you didn't get a chance to say here today.) seltzer@samizdat.com
Richard Seltzer -- All -- also, please send me email with your suggestions for future topics. I want to take a break next Thursday (May 28). I need a breather. Then I want to start fresh with new topics. Check the followup to my last transcript for a list of the topics I'm considering now. I need your feedback and suggestions. http://www.samizdat.com/chat81.html
Jonathan -- I'm also going to look into MOO, cup-of-Mudd. Thanks. Also, for next time, I'm going to ask questions about NetPodium. Any knowledge about this, out there?
Dr. Rob Higgins -- I'm outta here too folks. Nice chatting with you all. Dr. Rob Higgins CIAO for NOW!
Bob Zwick -- It's been educational...
Bob Zwick bob@cottagemicro.com http://www.cottagemicro.com
Be sure and vist us at the Distance Education Chat next Tuesday from
12:00 - 1:00pm EST at http://www.cottagemicro.com/education/
Madeleine Butschler -- Thanks
for a discussion with detailed considerations. Often with this format,
it seems we touch on a few threads and do not follow through in much detail.
This was a thorough discussion.
Madeleine Butschler mmab@bc.sympatico.ca
tracy -- Glad you made it here,
Rob/Dr. Higgins. Goodbye all from Tracy Marks, Internet trainer in the
Boston area. And by the way, I need two more people for my Internet conferencing
and chat course beginning next Tuesday night at the Cambridge Center for
Adult Education - three three hour sessions, in which we will explore webchat,
moos, ICQ, IRC and other chat options. Contact me tracy@marks.net if interested.
Thanks!
Richard Seltzer -- Thanks to all for joining us today. Hope you can make it again in two weeks.
Nice to meet you online today. Good chat session.
I think there is confusion about firewalls and security. The distinction between inbound and outbound must be made and proxy servers considered.
http://www.3com.com/nsc/500619.html which contains:
Some typical filtering rules include:
Permit incoming Telnet sessions only to a specific list of internal hosts
Permit incoming FTP sessions only to specific internal hosts
Permit all outbound Telnet sessions
Permit all outbound FTP sessions
Deny all incoming traffic from specific external networks
http://www.equival.com.au/~equival/fdsetup/telnet.html
http://www.wsc.monash.edu.au/LDP/HOWTO/mini/Term-Firewall.html#toc4
http://www.csm-usa.com/proxy/faqs/telfaqs.htm#tel001
http://www.raptor.com/cs/FAQ/eunv4config_telnet.htm
Dr.Robert N. Higgins Ph.D. | ~ ~ ~ GYMNASIA VIRTUALES ~ ~ ~
CyberCorp Inc. | GymVCOW - http://www.cybercorp.net/COW
Reply, From: Richard Seltzer <seltzer@acunet.net> Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 15:30:19 -0400 (EDT)
Thanks very much for joining us today. It was a very lively and informative discussion.
Regarding firewalls, security, proxies etc., I'm connected from home right now. When I'm back in the office at Digital on Friday, I'll try again, using whatever client and whatever target site you suggest.
For our live demo last week at the Grassroots MOO, no one from Digital was able to get through -- and I know of about 20 people there who tried, including engineers who are developing Internet software. I also heard from several other folks behind other corporate firewalls who could not connect.
Whatever the security settings at Digital, it is an immovable given that they will not make any changes unless there is an overwhelming business case. Today, there is no such case for MOOs (a bit of a catch-22). So I'm looking for ways to enable the people who are trapped that way to get through and participate. Any and all advice appreciated.
Best wishes.
Richard Seltzer
Richard, did you see this article?
Chat clients reviewed...
http://www.cnet.com/Content/Reviews/Compare/Chatnow/?dd.cn
Also, it occurred to me after the chat today that companies appear to want chat or conferencing in which the technical facets are invisible and the learning curve is minimal.
I consult with several executives, and one of them have the time or patience to deal with technical hassles. They just want to be able quickly type (or talk) and get on with their agenda....And many of them don't know anything about computers and don't care to learn.
Setups that operate like ICQ (in which the messages come to them and they don't have to do anything to receive them) seem the most viable....as long as someone else installs the software for them!
Tracy Marks, M.A. tmar@tiac.net http://www.windweaver.com/
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