Transcript of the live chat session that took place Thursday, May 7, 1998. These sessions are normally scheduled for 12 noon-1 PM Eastern Time every Thursday. Please note that the US is now on Daylight Savings Time. So in international terms, we are on at GMT -4 instead of GMT -5.
These sessions are hosted by Richard Seltzer. If you would like to receive email reminders of our chat sessions, simply send a blank email message to businessonthewebchats-subscribe@yahoogroups.com or go to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/businessonthewebchats and sign up there.
For transcripts of previous sessions and a list of future topics, click here .
For an article on how to make "business chat" work (based on this experience), click here .
Since the chat itself happens at a rapid pace, it's often difficult to note interesting facts in particular URLs as they appear on-line. Here's a place to take a more leisurely look. I've rearranged some of the pieces to try to capture the various threads of discussion (which sometimes get lost in the rush of live chat).
Please send email with your follow-on questions and comments, and suggestions for topics we should focus on in future sessions. So long as the volume of email responses is manageable, I'll post the most pertinent ones here for all to see.
Richard Seltzer -- All -- We will officially begin in about 10 minutes. Meanwhile, as you connect, please introduce yourselves, let us know your interests, and let us know if you have had any previous experiences with MOOs (that's the discussion/interaction environment we plan to sample and talk about today).
Richard Seltzer -- Having any problems connecting? I had difficulty getting both Web-net and the MOO demo running from Bob's Webshare. That may have been a transient network problem. Have others been able to do it that way? Right now I'm connected by two separate browser windows and that seems to work fine. At the MOO site I was randomly assigned the name "Zircon_Guest."
ChristianF -- Hi! This is Christian Frosch from the Globewide Network Academy. I'm connected to web-net and the MOO system http://moo.du.org:8888 as ChristianF
Richard Seltzer -- Welcome, Christian. I'm really looking forward to this demo. I've heard a lot about MOOs but have never directly experienced one before.
Richard Seltzer -- Welcome, Ilene Frank, please introduce yourself and let us know your interests. Have you used a MOO before?
Bob@CottageMicro.Com -- Hello - Bob from Texas here. I'll try to answer any questions about WebShare at: WebShare
Phil -- Hello, Phil Grove, DIGITAL, Internet Marketing
Richard Seltzer -- Is everyone able to connect to the demo site?
Christian Frosch from Globewide Network Academy is going to lead us through
the world of MOOs today. (He's connected from Germany, so this is an international
event :-)
ChristianF -- All, if you
want to say something inside the MOO system, you need to type in the bottom
line of the MOO
window and you need to start with a "quotation mark"
ChristianF -- When you
are connected to the MOO system you first need to go to the meeting room
by typing the command:
@go #6490 in the bottom entry line
Richard Seltzer -- Christian -- is the MOO site we are connected to located in Germany or in the US?
ChristianF -- This site is in the US, I'm also connected via another MOO site in Israel
Bob@CottageMicro.Com -- I have both running now.
Bob@CottageMicro.Com -- Christian do we type that into the character password field?
ChristianF -- Bob, you don't need to type a password, just click on the connect using the integrated interface button
ChristianF -- Ok, when
you are in the MOO you should have a window that is divided into 3 different
parts. The upper part is the general navigation and MOO window. It contains
the description of the room you're in, its contents, currently a box with
transcripts, a screen, a walkman and a board.
The middle part is the chat window where which works like the web-net
chat by displaying what has been said but the difference is that everything
is displayed instantaneously. The bottom part is the entry line where you
can type what you want to say.
Andy Mermell -- I can't
use the integrated i/f because telnet won't go thru corp firewall. but
the web i/f has no place for me to type
"@go #6490" Help!
ChristianF -- Andy, the integrated is java-based it should work for you.
ChristianF -- Can everybody get to the MOO system? Any help needed?
Richard Seltzer -- Christian -- I'm connected in the MOO area. I see that for my messages to appear there, I need to type in the narrow form box at the bottom of the page and begin my message with " That seems to work like a normal IRC-style chat area. What's all the rest of the stuff? (I'm itching to explore).
ChristianF -- Richard, yes, you need to type into the narrow form box, the good thing about the box is that it has a history function which you can use with the cursor buttons on your keyboard
Bob@CottageMicro.Com -- I can't get into the connect button ( returns an IE can connect to server), but I can get into the webguest button.
Bob@CottageMicro.Com -- I'm in - just clicked the integrated button again.
Bob@CottageMicro.Com -- My Java portion of the screen is blank. How do I get the Java app to start ?
tracy5 -- Hi this is Tracy Marks. I've been part of two Moo communities, each for about three months. Am currently struggling to find out where we're supposed to be in the Moo. Am reading a note now but not sure I'm in #6490.
ChristianF -- Hi Tracy, yes you need to type @go #6490 to get into the chat forum that we are using at the moment
ChristianF -- Tracy -- Do you see "GNA Forum" at the top of the page. If so, you are in the right place. If not, backup and try again.
tracy5 -- Ok, I'm in as Jacinth guest. Couldn't seem to get a regular name.
Ilene Frank -- I'm ok on the old fashioned telnet version for DU
Andy Mermell -- (this page is displayed until the telnet client issues a command to display a fresh page) this is what shows in the top page.. but I can't use telnet thru the firewall
Andy Mermell -- it certainly sounds like the java program is trying to launch telnet.
ChristianF -- Andy, no the java does not launch telnet, it is a pure java applet
Richard Seltzer -- It looks like some folks are having difficulty connecting. I see that Christian, Sam and Ilene have gotten in. Has anyone else? Are the problems a matter of familiarity or are there some system compatibility or firewall issues?
ChristianF -- Bob, try starting the java console, that should preload java and thereby speed things up.
Phil -- I got to the page, and I see that we are to type @go #6490, but I am not sure where to type it....do we enter our name? PW?
Richard Seltzer -- Phil, first you have to click on "Integrated..." (It's in a box). Then a Java telnet app opens up. Then in the little form at the bottom of the page you enter @go #6490 to get to the right place.
ChristianF -- Phil, if you go to http://moo.du.org:8888 you can use the 'connect integrated interface' button right away, no user password needed. Phil, you'll then be connected as a guest, thus, no password needed.
Richard Seltzer -- All those who are here and have still not been able to connect to the MOO area (for any reason), please speak up.
Kathleen Gilroy -- Sorry, this is too frustrating.
Phil -- I am half way in...waiting
Phil -- Sorry, but . . . I get to the point of "The integrated telnet/web system is loading..." and the Java applet loads, but the top portion does not change and then I get a connection failed message.... any ideas?
ChristianF -- Phil, maybe an inet glitch, seem to be frequent today, you will have to reload.
Bob@Cottagemicro.com -- Phil, same happened to me but I left
reloaded the moo site it it went in ok.
Also try re-entering th @go command below.
Fred Symes -- I can't connect. Can to moo.du.org, but not when I append :8888
tracy5 -- Can't get in with Mutt lite either. Won't accept 8888 as the port address. Says unresolvable port address.
tracy5 -- Folks, I'm trying to get into the Moo for the third time. I keep losing my ISP connection....
ChristianF ChristianF-- Tracy, Richard, has connection problems earlier today as well, I'm suspicious that the connections are bad today. Normally we have up to 20-30 ppl connected simultaneously without a problem.
tracy5 -- I can't get in with the java interface. As soon as I'm in, I get connection closed. I'm going to try with Mutt Lite.
ChristianF -- Tracy, ok, others, if all breaks, please let's stay here and continue the chat. I can provide some more info about the MOO systems in general.
Carole Soule -- I got here a little late but can't seem to connect to the MOO. Wonder if it is a firewall issue. I get "Item requested could not be loaded by the Proxy". Oh well. I've tried quite a few times and get the same thing. Could it be the firewall doesn't the 8888 port address?
Richard Seltzer -- Christian -- I see that Carole is probably having firewall problems. Is the chat that is part of this MOO environment IRC-based? If so, then lots of our regular audience (who connect from the companies where they work) won't be able to get through.
ChristianF -- No, it's not IRC based
Richard Seltzer -- I suspect that trying to run two windows at once, with each of them doing several tasks, puts too much demands on an ordinary system. If we were trying the MOO alone (by browser or by special software), we might have fewer problems.
Bob@Cottagemicro.com -- Using WebShare with the chat window small let's me concentrate on the MOO, but notice when something is happening here.
Richard Seltzer -- Christian -- Maybe it would help to have a script. I.e., if you could write a series of instructions that I could include with my transcript, then people could go to the demo space at their leisure and step through it, and explore. This seems too complex to do in this format, with everyone here at once, and in just an hour.
Ilene Frank -- Richard, having some pre-loaded instructions and a self-paced tour is a good idea for MOOing the first time or two.
ChristianF waves to Zircon guest
ChristianF says, "Hi Richard."
ChristianF finds his way in.
PatrickB has arrived.
Zircon_Guest says, "Hi Christian. Do you want to guide us from here or from the chat area or both?"
Zircon_Guest says, "Christian, is there an easy way to see who is in this room now?"
ChristianF [to Richard]: "Yes, you can type look which shows who is connected
ChristianF says, "Hi Pat, hi Richard. I'm guiding via the web-net mainly, but parts via the MOO"
PatrickB says, " Hi Zircon ( Richard, I presume?)"
Ilene rushes in carrying a large bookbag wifilled with notes and papers
Ilene says, "Hi everyone"
PatrickB says, " Hi Ilene. Long time no see."
Ilene says, "Yeah - and I'm trying to open all these windows... "
Ilene says, "New computer in my offic"
Ilene says, "And I can't backspace suddenly"
ChristianF says, "Richard, I'm currently here twice as you can see via the 'look' command. Once connected via DU MOO and once via a different MOO system called BioMOO"Zircon_Guest says, "This is a challenge -- at Web-net there are two elements on the screen, and here there are two more; and for those connecting by /webshare, there's even more stuff."
Sam teleports in.
Sam waves.
Zircon_Guest says, "Christian, is there a quick table of common commands like 'look'?"
Sam says, "Hey Ilene, long time no see :-)"
ChristianF says, "Richard, you can type 'help' to get a quick help function"
Ilene says, "Hi! "
Sam exclaims, "Richard, welcome aboard!"
ChristianF [to Richard]: "The most interesting parts are in the middle part of the browser window. It contains objects which account for the name MOO (Object oriented)
Sam says, "Ilene, thanks for your help! Hope we can collaborate with Steve"
Jacinth_Guest arrives from nowhere.
Ilene says, "Have you heard from Steve lately? "
ChristianF [to Richard]: "When you click on one of the objects you can see more, for examlpe when you click on the walkman
ChristianF [to Richard]: "You can read the current transcript.
Sam says, "We had a delay in sending info, just yesterday, also he might be still debating organizational issues"
Ilene says, "Tracy, are you on as guest?"
Ilene says, "Sam - good deal! Let me know how it turns out."
ChristianF [to Richard]: "When you click on the GNA Board you can read what has been wirtten there. Thus, in general you can for exmaple leaeve a note and everbyody can pick it up and read it.
Sam asks, "Richard, are you considering using the MOO for your meetings?"
Emerald_Guest arrives from nowhere.
Amber_Guest arrives from nowhere.
Zircon_Guest says, "I"
ChristianF says, "Hi everybody, great you made it"
ChristianF [to Hi]: great you made it
Zircon_Guest says, "I'm having a little difficulty getting used to this. The chat window here on the bottom of the screen is very small. If this is where the action is at any given time, I would like to be able to see more messages at once. Also the automatic refresh moves the old messages up before I have time to read them. Is there any way the user can contol settings like that?"
ChristianF says, "For those of you who have a VRML plugin, you might wanna explore the VRML view into the the window, just scroll down the mupper window and click on the VRML view"
ChristianF [to Richard]: "You can just click into the window and then scroll up using the cursor buttons
Zircon_Guest says, "Christian, VRML is beyond me at this point. I don't have a plug-in installed. What would I see that is different with that? "
Ilene says, "VRML is very spacey! There's more a feeling that you are THERE there."
Ilene says, "It's 3-D."
Sam asks, "Richard, what client are you using?"
ChristianF [to Sam]: "We are all connected via browsers
Zircon_Guest says, "Sam, yes I'm using a Netscape browser"
Amber_Guest has disconnected.
Assistants of the local psychology institute arrive to cart Amber_Guest off to their dream-research labs.
Zircon_Guest says, "Christian -- re: "there". At this point, all I am experiencing is this chat area. Where is there? What should I be doing on the top of the screen?"
ChristianF [to Richard]: "As you can see at the bottom of the upper part there is now a videoconference possibilty, which allows for connecting to those who have video set up
Agate_Guest arrives from nowhere.
Zircon_Guest says, "Christian, sorry, but I'm totally confused. At the top of my screen I see I am at GNA Forum. I see hyperlinks for Box with Transcripts, screen, walkman and GNA Board, and it says "Nobody else is here." Am I in the right place?"
Sam says, "I am using a simple Windows 3.1 client called MUTT ... I get messages on the top and compose my message on the bottom ... simple and efficient"
Sam says, "It is important to get a client that separates composition from discussion"
ChristianF [to Richard]: "right Click into the upper frame and use reload frame
Zircon_Guest says, "Christian -- when I right click in the upper frame, reload frame is not an option."
PatrickB has disconnected.
PatrickB has connected.
Zircon_Guest says, "Christian, I'm afraid we're losing people. with Look I only see about five people here, but there were close to 20 over in the Web-net chat area. I think we need to handhold more people over."
ChristianF [to Richard]: "Yes, we can go back to web-net Agate_Guest says, "Hi, I made it over (heather duggan here)"
ChristianF [to Heather]: "Hi ChristianF [to Richard]: "Click on the 'look around' link in the upper frame that will update your screen
Quartz_Guest arrives from nowhere.
ChristianF waves
Jacinth_Guest has disconnected.
Assistants of the local psychology institute arrive to cart Jacinth_Guest off to their dream-research labs.
Agate_Guest says, "is this the main room we should be occupying? Anything special we should be checking out?"
Malachite_Guest arrives from nowhere.
Sam says, "Our experience is that people get discouraged with MOO in the start ... but it certainly grows on you ... perhaps we could organize a tutorial session for Richard's people on another occassion"
ChristianF [to Heather]: "Yes, that's the main room, the interesintg links are in the upper window, whhich contain all objects that are here and all other nice stuff ;-)
Ilene says, "I'm going to log off and try using the web version to get in again. See ya!"
Ilene goes home.
Agate_Guest says, "Ok, I'll go through the objects a little."
Malachite_Guest says, "Bob@CottageMicro.Com here..."
ChristianF waves to Bob
Garnet_Guest finds its way in.
PatrickB says, " Hi, Bob. Welcome"
Malachite_Guest says, "BZ say I only see two frames on the moo screen"
ChristianF says, "Bob, which one is missing"
Garnet_Guest says, "Hello... I have no idea what I'm doing here"
PatrickB says, " Ja, 2 via Web is usual."
PatrickB says, " Hi Garnet. Welcome to (virtual) reality :-)."
PatrickB [to Garnet_Guest]: When you figure it out, please share :-).
Garnet_Guest has disconnected.
Assistants of the local psychology institute arrive to cart Garnet_Guest off to their dream-research labs.
Zircon_Guest has disconnected.
Assistants of the local psychology institute arrive to cart Zircon_Guest off to their dream-research labs.
Malachite_Guest says, "I'm hanging around, but don't know what to do first."
ChristianF [to Bob]: "The best thing would be to check out the objects on the upper frame or you can type look and then 'examine <object name> to explore the things that are in the same room
Sam says, "Do not worry Garnet, we are here to help out"
Obsidian_Guest arrives from nowhere.
Emerald_Guest has disconnected.
Assistants of the local psychology institute arrive to cart Emerald_Guest off to their dream-research labs.
Lapis_Guest arrives from nowhere.
Lapis_Guest says, "Hello all. This is Tracy as Lapis guest, using Mutt lite."
(ChristianF has disconnected.)
Agate_Guest says, "Hi Tracy, this is Heather Duggan"
Lapis_Guest says, "Hello Heather Agate_Guest...."
(ChristianF has connected.)
Malachite_Guest says, "hello Christian, where did you go ?"
ChristianF [to Bob]: "I disconnected from Israel, but am back again. I'M still connected to DU. The major feature of the Forum is that it connects 20 MOO systems around the world in real time.
Agate_Guest has disconnected.
Assistants of the local psychology institute arrive to cart Agate_Guest off to their dream-research labs.
Malachite_Guest says, "are the objects on the upper map open to me or do I need a password ?"
ChristianF says, "Thus people can connect to a system that is physically close to them and can then participate in a meeting"
PatrickB [to Malichite]: Open
Malachite_Guest says, "[Bob] what will happen if I click on a building in the upper map ?"
Sapphire_Guest arrives from nowhere.
ChristianF [to Bob]: "You should see something from the virtual environment of DU
ChristianF says, "Bob, if you have a VRML plugin you might wanna try the VRML view in the MOO"
Sapphire_Guest has disconnected.
Assistants of the local psychology institute arrive to cart Sapphire_Guest off to their dream-research labs.
Sam says, "Richard, it might be a good idea to just use plain ol' telnet first for a few weeks and when your people get accustomed you slowly move to
VRML"
Malachite_Guest finds its way out.
Sam says, "Got to go folks, see everybody soon"
Sam waves.
Sam has disconnected.
Malachite_Guest finds its way in.
Christian Frosch frosc000@mail.uni-mainz.de
Institute of Toxicology http://www.uni-mainz.de/~cfrosch
University of Mainz Phone: +49 6131 17 4387
Obere Zahlbacher Str. 67 Fax: +49 6131 230506
55131 Mainz Germany
Thus, every user can create rooms and objects inside a MOO system and use them for teaching. For example, there are slide projectors inside the MOO system that can be used to project slides into the room which can then be seen by everybody in the room.
These slides can consists of mere text or of images,. For example, NASA
had a very large room in the MOO while their Sojourner mission was sending
images from Mars last year and many ppl could see them via the MOO. They
had also some tutorials inside the MOO.
Generally, the MOO systems are ideal virtual classrooms as classes
can have their very own rooms which they can sutff with their own materials,
like a blackboard
Or they can be used to have a lecturer deliver a virtual lecture.
The current MOO system for example, Diversity University MOO has special support for K12 classes and is also used for other online courses along with a major MOO system for biology on the web, based in Israel
ChristianF -- "The rooms in the MOO are all virtual, thus they exist only on the system and separate the discussions inside the system. For example, web-net has a single room.
Richard Seltzer -- Christian -- my confusion is very basic. how is a "virtual environment" with physical analogs important and useful for carrying on business or educational discussions? I think I'll have to experience it to understand it.
tracy5 -- I have some useful Moo links at the bottom of http://www.windweaver.com/w95tips6.htm#MOOS A simple basic command page for Diversity University is at http://www.du.org/cc/basicmoo.html
tracy5 -- Richard - One way it's useful is that groups can break up and go into a variety of different rooms and then all get together again in one room. Also, in most Moos, there's a grapevine that allows you to communicate across a number of rooms....
ChristianF -- for this
chat and another one for the DE chat, but you cannot get into the other
room directly, you would always have to reconnect to web-net, fill in the
form and the get into the room. Inside the MOO you can go to any room once
you are connected.
Tracy, yes, I agree the MOO is certainly more demanding with respect
to technics, but mostly the use does not have to worry about the techniques,
potential students can just connect to their classroom and can participate
without the need to create objects etc. But the teacher create texts ie
prepare the whole class sessions in advance and could then just display
the material and provide guidance via the chat window at the same time
tracy5 -- Richard, I'll send you a list of basic commands to post at the end of the transcript. Meanwhile, windows people may want to use Mutt lite. There's an alternative for the Mac but I don't remember what it is.
Bob@Cottagemicro.com -- What is a Walkman - Christian ?
ChristianF -- Bob, a walkman works like a real life walkman it can record sessions and play them, ie you could play the whole transcript of the meeting so that you can read it while you are connected to the MOO.
Bob@Cottagemicro.com -- Christian, would be nice if there were a frame with a COMMAND list displayed somewhere.
Richard Seltzer -- Christian -- I guess a MOO allows you to run a three-ring circus. But so far, I've only experienced the first ring -- which feels like IRC chat. How do I see "slides"? And how does one post "slides"? And in what way can this be like a "blackboard" (which to me means something very different from "slides.")
ChristianF -- Richard, if you want to have slides you need to have a projector which is just another object in the MOO. You can then virtually insert texts into the projector and have them displayed on the screen.
Richard Seltzer -- Christian -- sorry I am still confused. What is a projector? where does one find one? how does one use one? The word "object" here is very confusing to me. All I've really understood so far is that I can chat.
ChristianF -- Richard, if you type @create $note named test
for example,you will then have a virtual piece of paper that you can write on, drop, leave in a room etc.
ChristianF -- That would be an object within the MOO system. Same holds for a projector, there is parent class called projector which defines the properties of a projector, ie you can insert a slide an so on
Richard Seltzer -- Christian -- My problem is very basic. What is a "room"? What is a "virtual piece of paper"? I feel like I've been dropped in the middle of an adventure game. I'm in the middle of a forest. I'm lost. I don't know how to "see" or to "move." Very, very basic.
ChristianF -- Ah, ok. If you want to go to a room you type @go room for example @go #6490 When you connected to the MOO you were in the Room #1, called the quiet cubicle, from there you went to the room #6490 (called GNA Forum)
tracy5 -- Richard, a room is like a chat room in a Moo, but it can be set up to create the illusion of a physical environment. Anyone can create their own Moo rooms, and use different Moo rooms for different purposes.
tracy5 -- Having been involved with Moos twice, I find the biggest problem is the technical difficulties....and creating rooms and environments is technically demanding. But once you're in, they're nice places for chatting....The illusions of physical environment, ability to move things etc. though has never seemed very essential to me.... just fun.
Bob@Cottagemicro.com -- Can we all go to a room together to experience what look's like it might be interesting ?
Richard Seltzer -- Bob -- yes, I'd like to get the experience, but for one reason or another, we're not getting there today. It may be a technical issue. Or it may be that this is so unfamiliar to us all that we are stumbling and doing something wrong. I'm still very interested in learning how to use a MOO and hence getting a sense for how it can and should be applied.
ChristianF -- Bob, if you
scroll down the upper frame in the MOO you will see a map of the virtual
environment inside the MOO.
You can click on any room and you'll get there.
tracy5 -- Tracy Marks tracy@marks.net I have a web page about my experience in a Grassroots Moo support group for therapists up at http://www.webwinds.com/thalassa/torrey.htm It's somewhat personal so I don't have my real name on it, but it shows how creating Moo rooms can be therapeutic...
Richard Seltzer -- Tracy -- thanks very much for that Grassroots pointer.
Bob@Cottagemicro.com -- Thanks Tracy. MOO looks like it has some good potential, but a bit of a learning cure for Web Surfers.
Richard Seltzer -- Tracy -- Thanks very much for the offer. I would like to see that other MOO. Let's try to schedule. Let's try to figure out how to make this work. We need a simple way to experience and learn.
donnag -- That sounds like a wonderful plan!
Richard Seltzer -- All -- unfortunately, time is running out. what have we learned? I learned that this is not just another piece of discussion software. A MOO is a very different way of navigating and interacting in cyberspace, and we probably can't reasonably be expected to change our frames of reference in 60 minutes. This is going to take some doing.. but I feel it is very important to learn about this.
Richard Seltzer -- All -- are you interested in pursuing this experiment (with more primer material in the transcript) for our next session? Or should we move on?
Bob@Cottagemicro.com -- I'll vote YES.
Richard Seltzer -- All -- before you log off, please post here your email and URL addresses (don't count on the software to have captured them). And please send me email with your followup thoughts and suggestions for inclusion with the transcript. seltzer@samizdat.com
Andy Mermell -- au revoir
Ilene Frank -- Ilene Frank, ifrank@lib.usf.edu http://www.lib.usf.edu/~ifrank/
Julie Scherer -- Julie Scherer, julie@krev.com
Bob@CottageMicro.Com -- Bob@CottageMicro.Com http://www.cottagemicro.com Thanks for a new experience !
Carole Soule -- I did have trouble connecting to the MOO but it may have been more a problem of load vs the firewall. I just tried again and have gotten a step further. Maybe you just have to be get to "class" on-time. I vote we try this again. Carole Soule carole.soule@digital.com
Richard Seltzer -- Christian, thanks very much for your time and your patience. Will you be available for a followup session? And can you provide or point to some very basic step-through instructions and explanations?
ChristianF -- Richard, yes to both.
Richard Seltzer -- All, as usual I'll post the transcript in a few days. Check http://www.samizdat.com/#chat Christian, please email me the raw transcript from the MOO area so I can include some of that.
Richard Seltzer -- FYI -- We're getting a wee bit famous. Today I got email from a PR agency for a publisher asking if we'd like to have an author for a guest.
Richard Seltzer -- All -- thanks very much for joining us. Please come again next Thursday and spread the word. And also, please send me your reactions/feedback seltzer@samizdat.com
Here is a link to the help@MOO forum http://admin.gnacademy.org:8001/HyperNews/get/moo.html
which contains a lot of intro material. This is another direct link to a very basic tutorial http://admin.gnacademy.org:8001/uu-gna/text/moo/moo_tut.html
Christian Frosch, frosc000@mail.uni-mainz.de, http://www.uni-mainz.de/~cfrosch Institute of Toxicology, University of Mainz, Germany
From: secretary@gnacademy.org Date: Fri, 8 May 98 09:44:04 -0400
>Thanks again for your time and patience. I need to do some reading and exploring. I think it would be very valuable to try this again.
Yes, I think so, too.
>Perhaps, instead of running two windows, we could try having everyone go directly to the MOO area -- perhaps at an earlier time (11 AM here?) to explore together. And then all meeting in the regular chat room to do a post-mortem. Does that make sense? Or what other approach would you suggest?
I think that's a very good idea. People will probably be less confused and it would be easier to provide guidance for them.
When would you like to do it? Next week?
ChristianF
From: Richard Seltzer <seltzer@acunet.net> Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 10:14:14 -0400 (EDT)
Yes, I'd like to try it next week if that's okay with you.
Richard
>Any suggestions on how we might make a demo like this work better? … (I feel like a test pilot who just crashed.)
I empathize. I've sometimes taught classes that were disastrous because of technology problems....It happens.
My experience with Moos leads me to believe that the technical issues of connecting makes them prohibitive for many. Actually though it's easy to connect and maintain a connection with Moo/Mud software, which is easy to use. But for a demo, you can't count on people downloading the software. (Wish I knew what happened to Mutt lite...it's small and simple...but all the ftp links I have for it now are for targa format, which I know nothing about. But I hear the ZMudd, though bigger, is excellent.)
First, I suggest you spend some time experiencing a Moo yourself. In the group I was in last summer, one of the leaders had never been in a Moo before, and he had so much trouble (he was in Israel) we ended up meeting without him.
I might be able to spare 1/2 hour sometime Sunday afternoon to show you grassroots moo, and what I set up there. Or anytime between 1pm -7:30pm Sunday if you're available (it IS mother's day)
I suggest you set up a link at the web-net page with preliminary info for people to read before they enter the chat - including 4 or 5 basic commands. And maybe on your announcement mailings you can suggest downloading the software for an easier experience. Otherwise, you'll spend all your time helping people deal with connection issues.
You might also want to have a co-facilitator...someone to hang out and run the conversation at Web-net for those who can't connect, while a separate conversation goes on at the Moo. (My guess is that a firewall prevents access to a Moo)
My personal experience with Moos:
The easy of conversation and the accessibility of multiple rooms (as well as a grapevine by which everyone anywhere in a Moo can communicate) is a definite plus. Creating environments and objects however is technically demanding... and I still remain unclear about the practical usefulness
of object creation except for the fact that they can help provide an illusion of a physical environment and make people more comfortable. If the environment and objects are already set up, visitors do enjoy them.
Example:
Michael says So what do we do next?
Ginny asks for a beer.
Michael passes her a beer.
Ginny sits on the couch.
Ginny drinks the beer.
Ginny says I think we all ought to arrange a meeting with the president next week.
Michael says Next week? How much have you been drinking,
Ginny? I thought that was your first beer.
Silly...but that's what goes on in meetings in a Moo room.
People keep referring to and utilizing the physical environment. Not that it's necessary!
(I know that some educators at Diversity University have found some viable ways of incorporating the Moo into teaching... perhaps they have more to say about the practical uses...)
Tracy Marks, M.A. tmar@tiac.net http://www.windweaver.com/
The zmud link should be http://www.zuggsoft.com/zuggsoft/index.cfm
More client links http://www.mudconnector.com/resources/Mud_Resources:Mud_Clients.html
Both Zmudd and a Mac client can be downloaded from Rob Higgins site... http://www.cybercorp.net/GymVMOO/mooclnt.html
What's really annoying is that Muttlite isa bout a 250kb program that's so easy to use. The other clients are all 1mb or more with a lot of unecessary extras. Apparently the Mac Muddweller client is small and simple though.... I'll download zmudd and check it out...
Another Mud/Moo research articles page http://www.godlike.com/muds/mres/research.html
I notice that pueblo http://www.chaco.com/pueblo/ is a moo/mud client that allows for visuals. Some Moos are incorporating more visual elements...
Graphics moos/muds are linked to http://www.mudconnector.com/
Tracy
I just realized I had a Moo information page for my internet chat courses http://www.webwinds.com/irc/chatmoo.htm I'm revising it now...you can create a link to it and use it as your basic resource page. I'm adding information on getting software, connecting to grassroots, basic commands....
Tracy
At 04:20 PM 5/7/98 -0400, you wrote:
>Thanks very much. I'm going to need to mull this over and try poking around on my own. Yes, I'd very much appreciate a guided tour on Sunday.
My Moo skills are a bit rusty because I haven't been to Grassroots since July but I think I can figure it out again.
You can use a software client, telnet, or connect via java.
Info below.
One of the interesting thing about Grassroots was that it was created for the blind and the deaf. Many of its users are blind...Bob Zenhausern, who administers the 500+ St Johns U mailing lists started it in the psych dept. there.
From: Tracy Marks <tmar@tiac.net> Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 18:12:05 -0400
Bob Zenhausern (dr z) who founded grassroots is at drz@dorsai.org OR DRZ@SJUVM.STJOHNS.EDU I just emailed him to ask him if he's free at noon Thursday.
Ann Parsons, Dicken_wanderer, who handles a lot of grassroots stuff including names is apk@frontier.net I also emailed her, and asked her how you can get a name.
Rob Higgins who runs cybercorp.net and teaches the Teaching Online course is rob@cybercorp.net Writing him too.
I'll put together a brief set of instructions for you, with the room numbers for the grassroots tutorial rooms. There
are many of them. Actually some of them ( after @go) are:
#739 tutorials
#1295 studio tv tutorial
#224 beginners "Seed" introduction to Moo commands
#2521 Moo information
Again, to go to a room you type @go #739 or whatever the room number is. Thalassa is #3276. Taproot, the central area is #159.
To find out the exits from the room you are in, you can type @ways Then typing the name of the exit takes you there.
Once you're registered you type @rooms to see your personal database of rooms, with the numbers for each.
To add a room you type @addroom and the room you are in is added to your database.
I think you have to be a builder to get on the grapevine though. Once you're registered, you apply to be a builder, which enables you to create rooms. So this might not be useful for people only visiting.
Tracy
From: Tracy Marks <tmar@tiac.net> Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 23:14:54 -0400
All the info you need [about the Grassroots MOO] is now up athttp://www.webwinds.com/irc/chatmoo.htm
I needed to revise this for my Internet chat class anyway, as we'll be doing Moos this time. The chats etc. I cover in the course (which starts soon at the Cambridge Center) are listed at http://www.webwinds.com/irc/chat.htm
I'm willing to log into Grassroots at about 11:45 and help people orient themselves on Thursday if you want to hang out at web-net for the first 10 minutes....I know it's hard to be two places at once....
Now that I did what I need to do for two weeks from now, I've got to start doing what I need to do for tomorrow <grin>
Tracy
p.s. just forwarded to you a response from Ann (dicken_wanderer at grassroots)
To: "Ann K. Parsons" <akp@frontiernet.net>
From: Tracy Marks <tmar@tiac.net>
Hi Ann Dicken_Wanderer...
This is Tracy...torrey on grassroots. I was showing Richard Seltzer the Moo, as he's wanting to introduce his Thursday chat group to the Moo next Thursday at noon eastern standard time. I said I'd help out. What is the procedure for bringing a group of about 15 or 20 people to Grassroots? (It's a weekly chat on Internet business and networking) They all may not arrive on time.....
Also, does he have to email you to get a name?
Thanks...Tracy
To: Tracy Marks <tmar@tiac.net>
From: "Ann K. Parsons" <akp@frontiernet.net> Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 20:25:36 -0400
<grin> Is that Richard Seltzer of Internet On A Disk? If so, he is thrice welcome to GR.
Yes, he needs to email me with his real name, playername requested, birthday, email addy, and group name. If he is planning to bring on a group regularly, he may want a room for that purpose. This is also possible. Indeed, it would make chatting easier I would think.
<smile> As you can see, good mermaid, I am able to grant your wishes. If you had invited me in, I would have spread a banquet for Seltzer, if he is indeed whom I think he is. Best thing to do is to have him use guests for the first time, then, if he has the same group all the time, they can all get playernames and come whenever they like and build or just chat if that is what they want to do.
I'm thrilled if this is the guy I think it is. Take care, please advise ASAP as to how I may help best.
Ann P./DW
From: "Ann K. Parsons" <akp@frontiernet.net> Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 07:14:34 -0400
I am happy to welcome you to GR. I have been getting your newsletter for years, up until last September when I changed providers. I hadn't had a chance to write you about my address change. <smile>
I will make a player character, a persona, for you.
The name will be RichardS as long names are difficult to type repeatedly in MOO. You will receive a password from the computer via email. You may certainly change it, if you like, once you arrive here.
Please let me know if there is anything I can help you with. Do you want a room for your conference? I can build you one, or you can do so yourself. Just let me know.
If your colleagues like GR, and would like personae on GR, just let me know.
Again, so glad you've chosen GR as your meeting place. Looking forward to having you with us.
Ann P., aka Dicken_Wanderer, Head Gardener of GrassRoots
From: Richard Seltzer <seltzer@acunet.net> Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 13:39:40 -0400 (EDT)
To: "Ann K. Parsons" <akp@frontiernet.net>
Thanks very much for the hospitality. I'm looking forward to getting some first-hand experience with a MOO, to get a clearer sense of possible business and education applications.
Regarding my newsletter, I'm embarrassed at how long it has been sense I last put out an issue. I've been so tied up with my chat sessions and other writing, that it's been on the back burner. It's high time that I resurrected it.
It would be great if we could have a room for our meeting/demo/chat this Thursday. But at this point, my knowledge of MOOs consists of just what Tracy was able to convey to me during an hour-long on-line session yesterday. I still wouldn't have a clue how to build one myself. (I need to find time to read the on-line help/tutorial info.) I'd appreciate any help you can provide.
Thanks again.
Richard
From: "Ann K. Parsons" <akp@frontiernet.net> Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 17:52:44 -0400
OK, fine. I'll build you a room, and set your "home" there so you will arrive in it. I will put a note in the welcome room for guests, and they can @join you when they arrive. I will be there to welcome them. Do you need to have your room locked, or will a "busy" sign suffice? If your conference is private and you want security, just let me know. Usually just putting the @busy sign on will let folks know that you are busy and should not disturb you.
Ann P.
From: "Ann K. Parsons" <akp@frontiernet.net> Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 21:11:20 -0400
I created a room on GR called Samizdat Conference Room. It is #3602. It is a generic room #1986. We do need a large conference room, and I have written to our programmer about it. but for now, I think this will do.
Tracy, would appreciate it if you would take a look in there, see if you want to add anything.
Richard, I have changed the ownership of the room, so it is now yours. You will also find a tape recorder and a bulletin board in there. Hope that these will prove useful to you. Ask Tracy for help or me for help in using them.
If I can do anything else, please let me know.
Oh, yes, Richard, you will arrive in the conference room when you log on. It is your "home".
Ann P.
From: Richard Seltzer <seltzer@acunet.net> Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 06:21:45 -0400 (EDT)
To: Christian Frosch <secretary@gnacademy.org>
I've been learning what I can about MOOs in the limited time available. Tracy Marks led me through a tour of Grassroots.
Grassroots looks like a good place to start -- it's text only. Once you know how to navigate a text-only space, then it's possible to imagine some business uses and also to imagine the benefits of adding graphics and even VRML and multimedia. I think that's where we should do this Thursday's demo -- to keep the variables, the elements that newcomers need to learn to an absolute minimum.
Attached is a message I just got from Ann Parsons at Grassroots.
I've still got a lot to sort out (and a transcript to finish) before I can send a general message and alert folks as to what to expect and what they should do to get ready (and I have to fly to Toronto today to speak at Docuworld). But the pieces seem to be coming together. Your advice and help are greatly appreciated and still very needed.
Richard
From: secretary@gnacademy.org Date: Tue, 12 May 98 19:07:00 -0400
I'll attend the demo, but I'm not very familiar with GrassRoots and have no stuff in that MOO that I could show there since I do most of my work in either BioMOO or Diversity University MOO. But I'd be able to show some of the basic features of the MOO system there.
I'd suggest that you would send a note to people to connect to GRMOO via their address using telnet.
rdz.stjohns.edu 8888
The problem with using some telnet clients is that they do not nicely interface with the MOO environment, so some of them do not display what the user is actually typing. That's why I suggested to go for using the web browsers and the Java interface to the MOO system, since they use the Java applet as MOO interface. Normally people would get hold of a copy of a common 'MOO/MUD client' which separate the typing and chat area for example, which is not possible with a plain telnet.
On the other hand, it's certainly not feasable that everybody tries to get hold of a MOO client first and then installs it on his machine. So, I'd say that we start with a regular telnet client and then I'll show how to speak and move through the MOO system.
Basic commands for acting inside the MOO system are
"bla, bla
to say something. The leading quotation mark is mandatory.
@move #<room-numer>
to move to a certain room. For example the Samizdat room
has the number #3602
These basic commands should get everybody going in the MOO.
ChristianF
One problem people may have is firewalls. Zmud has a section on firewalls and MOos in their help section. Just cut and pasted this....
Tracy
Some people are connected to the Internet via a Proxy Server or Firewall. zMUD v5.21 and greater support SOCKS4 compatible Proxy Servers, or regular Telnet Proxy servers. To configure zMUD for these types of connections, select the Preferences option in the Edit menu at the main Character screen, or select Preferences while inside zMUD. Go to the Proxy settings page. Select whether you are using a SOCKS4 or a Telnet proxy. SOCKS4 is the preferred option and is supported by most modern firewalls. Simply enter the hostname or IP address of the Proxy server, along with the port that its SOCKS4 service runs on, which is usually 1080. If your server requires a username to connect, enter the proper name into the username field.
Keep in mind that this is a joint learning experience. I am unfamiliar with MOOs myself, and am looking forward to learn from the experts who have volunteered to guide us through.
My early observations --
With a chat room, the visitors come and go and leave nothing of themselves behind, except whatever content may be captured in a transcript. With a MOO room, regular visitors can reshape the environment over time, by using and creating "objects." To me, this seems like a natural for groups which gather on a regular basis -- such as staff meetings, distance ed classes, writers groups, and group on-line therapy sessions. The "objects" might be practical or playful, to induce a friendly environment, that makes everyone feel "at home" and that encourages all to participate (including those who never speak up in traditional chat rooms), and also encourage them to return and look forward to returning. Such an environment evolves over time to meet the needs of the members.
Keep in mind, also, that this environment makes it relatively easy to open up multiple chat rooms, and to (with a "grapevine") to have one speaker "heard" across all the rooms. To me, this seems like a natural for meetings with breakout sessions. This might also be a mechanism for creating a series of conference rooms, and making them available in the style of a convention center (complete with meeting facilitators and objects tailored to the meetings goals). Anyway, I'm very interested in not just experiencing this different kind of interactive on-line environment, but also hearing of how it has been and can been applied for business and education.
Hi! I took part in the last MOO "conversation." I know one of the big questions was "why MOO?" I'm not sure if this book got mentioned: You might want to look at "High Wired: On the Design, Use, and Theory of Educational MOOs" edited by Cynthia Haynes and Jan Rune Holmevik (University of Michigan Press, 1998.) I just got my copy through amazon.com and it's a winner!
Ilene Frank, Reference Dept., Tampa Campus Library, LIB 122, University of South Florida, Tampa FL 33620. http://www.lib.usf.edu/~ifrank/
I teach online using Diversity University MOO. Unfortunately I cannotparticipate in your chat tomorrow, because I will be teaching at that time.
As coordinator for the Librarians' Online Support Team, we have used a variety of different MOO based tools over the past 2 years. I thought you might like to see a log of one of our sessions, so you can see how they work.
The log is visible at http://moo.du.org:8888/99anon/anonview/12277
Other logs can be seen via the L.O.S.T. home page at http://admin.gnacademy.org:8001/~lost/
I just wanted to share this information with you.
I am also teaching other Online classes. You can see some of them listed at http://www.kovacs.com/online.html
Isabel
Previous transcripts and schedule of upcoming chats -- www.samizdat.com/chat.html
To connect to the chat room, go to www.samizdat.com/chat-intro.html
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