Transcript of the live chat session that took place Thursday, March 5, 1998. These sessions are normally scheduled for 12 noon-1 PM Eastern Time (GMT -5) every Thursday.
These sessions are hosted by Richard Seltzer. If you would like to receive email reminders of our chat sessions, simply send a blank email message to businessonthewebchats-subscribe@yahoogroups.com or go to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/businessonthewebchats and sign up there.
For transcripts of previous sessions and a list of future topics, click here .
For an article on how to make "business chat" work (based on this experience), click here .
Since the chat itself happens at a rapid pace, it's often difficult to note interesting facts in particular URLs as they appear on-line. Here's a place to take a more leisurely look. I've rearranged some of the pieces to try to capture the various threads of discussion (which sometimes get lost in the rush of live chat).
Please send email with your follow-on questions and comments, and suggestions for topics we should focus on in future sessions. So long as the volume of email responses is manageable, I'll post the most pertinent ones here for all to see.
Carole Soule -- Richard, today is a wild day here at Digital, for me anyway, so I won't be able to stay for the whole discussion.
Marshall Wick -- Hi, I'm Marshall Wick and I teach courses in the School of Management, Gallaudet University, in Washington, D C, a university world renown for its student body: at the undergraduate, all deaf. All my courses are web based to varying degrees and capable of being accessed from a distance though i don't look at them strictly as distance education courses.
Richard Seltzer -- Welcome, Carole and Marshall. All -- as you connect please introduce yourselves and let us know your interests. That will help us get started quickly.
ChristianF -- Hi, I'm Christian Frosch, working for the Globewide Network Academy. http://www.gnacademy.org
Richard Seltzer -- All -- please take another look at last week's transcript http://www.samizdat.com/chat72.html I recently added a couple more follow-up messages, with useful links.
Ken Merwin -- Greetings from wintery Wisconsin! Ken Merwin - hoping to get a grad. degree in list serv's and chat rooms!
Richard Seltzer -- Welcome, Christian and Ken.
Richard Seltzer -- Welcome, Tina Wibberg, please introduce yourself and let us know your interests.
Richard Seltzer -- Welcome, Patrick Callahan. It looks like, from your address, you are at McCoy, in the Army. Do you work with Rose Kimberley (who joined us last week)?
Patrick Callahan -- Yes, Richard, I work with Rose. She had a problem with her computer, so we will both be at this keyboard. Pat
Richard Seltzer -- Welcome, Ron Rothenberg and goldenrod. Please introduce yourselves and let us know your interests.
goldenrod -- Hi from goldenrod. This is my first visit to the chat room. I'm open to anything.
Richard Seltzer -- Welcome, Bob Fleischer and kindred. Please introduce yourselves and dive in.
ChristianF -- Thanks Richard.
Yes, the catalog listing is free. We get revenue from the
advertising on the catalog pages and we set up catalogs for educational
institutions, which is fee-based.
Richard Seltzer -- Ken -- I'd also be interested in that URL.
Ken Merwin -- Richard - I'll post it for the archives, too. Ken
Marshall Wick -- Ken, great--i will appreciate your sending me the URL and since Richard is also interested, why not send it to him to add to transcript of today's discussion. I sent Richard four URLs myself. One on WGU home page, one on the FAQ on WGU and one on the extensive list of colleges and universities now requiring laptops/notebooks. Also sent him some info on one virtual conference (online, no travel, etc. and not time bound) i feel you should all attend if you are interested in distance education. The TCC Conference coming up this spring.
Ken Merwin -- Marshall - I saw your post-chat contributions; then remembered I had promised to post some stuff on Cu-SeeMe; I will tomorrow after I participate in a conference from Tennessee, I think - he was looking for some volunteer "audience" types.
Marshall Wick -- I have a
'private' web page (not linked to my home page or other pages within) that
will give you lots of information on many of the topics we have been discussing.
So if it is of any help, feel free to browse. it is at:
http://www.gallaudet.edu:80/~emwick/technology.html
Marshall Wick -- One of the
listservs i find very useful is an AAHE (American Association of Higher
Education) partner of sorts TLTR (Teaching, Learning Technology Roundtable)
list. There are about 7,000 subscribers and it is free. Info:
Anyone can subscribe to the AAHESGIT Listserver by sending the EMail
message (with subject line left blank): SUBSCRIBE AAHESGIT yourfirstname
yourlastname
to LISTPROC@LIST.CREN.NET Covers distance education issues very thoroughly
but in a selective, monitored way.
Sudha Jamthe -- Ken: Can you tell us more about Nicenet? Is is an educational class online or an online community idea?
Richard Seltzer -- Sudha -- I believe that nicenet is a non-profit service (financed with grant money), which provides Forum-type facilities for free to anyone who wants to set up a class. Last week, Marilyn Ellis mentioned that she uses it and gave her URL there.
Ken Merwin -- Yes, now I recall Marilyn posting NiceNet here; but when I saw it again on NODE it prompted me to look at it. It looks like it's quite easy, no chat facility but it captures threaded discussion, allows for posts of documents (text only) as well as assignments, can generate e-mails, etc. Intended for users who don't have the high bandwidth; also cross-platform since it's web based.
Patrick Callahan -- For the person interested in CBT, we've just become aware of Nereus, a CBT production tool that's apparently of interest to the DOD community. There's also a great review of 7 CBT authoring products on the http://www.zdnet/pcweek/reviews/0818/18ibt.html site
Richard Seltzer -- Tina -- One of the participants in recent weeks (I'm embarrassed not to remember the name) is setting up a distance learning program for the court system in Missouri, I believe. (Should be able to find it in the transcripts.) Would probably be a good contact for you.
Patrick Callahan -- Tina, Rose Kimberley here. Missouri State University is, in my opinion, a leader in the DL arena. I've been at DL Conferences where they've been represented and have a lot of courses on the Web. Also, they held a conference there not too long ago and shared info on DL. I wish I had their web site. I could dig it up, if interested. It'd be worth following their efforts, I think.
Richard Seltzer -- Christian -- Are those standards you mentioned technical standards? What is it that they are trying to standardize?
ChristianF-- The mission of the P1484 Working and Study Groups is to develop technical Standards, Guidelines, and Recommended Practices for the area of Computer-Based Learning, with the goal of enabling tools, courseware, information, and services to be developed, acquired, and utilized on a component basis.
ChristianF -- They are also working on standards to for DE courses and students in general. Which means, that they try to define which skills a DE students needs to have to have equal chances for participation in online courses.
Patrick Callahan -- For Christian-- As you know, the ITU-T standards such as H.324, H.323, T-120, and others are in effect for computer based training of one sort or another. Manufacturers have also increased compatibility in various ways. Pat
ChristianF -- Patrick, they do not intend to define technical standards or to do hardware development. The ITU standards are important for the delivery of material. The LC merely focuses on what needs to be delivered and how (by video classes and such).
Richard Seltzer -- Christian -- I understand the need for technical standards. I'm somewhat puzzled by the effort define the skills needed. Doesn't sound like an IEEE kind of thing. Sounds more like something the education community should be dealing with. Am I misunderstanding?
ChristianF -- Which aims at defining the way educational material is to be delivered.
Patrick Callahan -- Folks: Can someone explain what IEEE is? Not aware of it. Rose
Richard Seltzer -- I believe (please correct me) that IEEE stands for Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers. It's an enormous organization with many subgroups. One of their functions is establishing standards for electronics design. I've never before heard of them getting involved in non-technical standards (such as standards for skill levels of students and course content).
ChristianF -- But they
do setup definitions and terms for a certain field, and DE is another field
they have are involved with. One goal of the P1484 group is to set (cited)
To develop standard definitions for all terms in the general area of
computer-based learning (also commonly refered to as Intelligent Tutoring
Systems (ITS), Computer-Aided Instruction (CAI), and Intelligent Learning
Environments (ILE)), including such basic terminology as is necessary for
full understanding of those terms. This shall include all terms common
to two or more Project Authorization Requests (PARs) approved within the
area of Computer-Based Learning. This shall include both the definition
of currently used terms, as well as the isolation, definition, and labeling
of new concepts.
ChristianF -- Richard, the page for P1484 is http://www.manta.ieee.org/p1484/
Richard Seltzer -- Christian -- Thanks. It's interesting the area of overlap. What I find most compelling about the Internet for education is the interaction. I see it as totally different from the Computer-Based-Instruction etc. of the past. In fact, I don't think of it as having anything to do with computers (anymore than I think of a phone conversation as being about telephones). It's a way to use technology to move beyond technology, and forget about technology -- to simply connect teachers and students, and students to one another. While I understand the need for standards for computer-based and computer-assisted etc., it's hard to imagine their applicability in this Internet-based realm.
ChristianF -- Richard, agreed. Yes, as soon as most students have the necessary skills to handle the web they can concentrate on learning rather than getting the PC to work.
Patrick Callahan -- Christian-- Don't mean to be a naysayer, but the building of glossaries or defining of terms can be quicksand. If they are technical enough to be accurate, they lose the laymen. If they are simple enough for laymen, they are oftentimes inaccurate. Send people to Webopoedia. Best Pat
ChristianF -- Patrick, I agree with you. I was basically pointing out that the P1484 group exists and that they are approved by IEEE to develop such standards. Currently they have attracted a number of people from all over the world who are now working on this. They do have real life meetings also, so they are really accomplishing something. Right now they are still at the draft stage, so we'd need to wait to see how things will develop.
ChristianF -- I think that
we can only get to real standards when the technological progress slows
down. But for example, the standard for many courses seems to have asynchronous
as well as synchronous interaction during the course. So, the text books
are on the web and the student is required to read the material. There
are assignments which are discussed via e-mail or during online sessions.
That's the 'standard' that we have for some courses. It does not matter
which tools are used for doing this,
MOO, mailing list, or a courseware system like WebCT, Topclass or Web
Course in a Box.
Patrick Callahan -- Christian-- Just read the Portway and Lane book-- they give key principles for delivering DL training-- 1, active learning; 2. instructor-student communication; and 3. student-student communication. Is that the kind of thing?
ChristianF -- For example, they are currently in the process of signing a Cooperative Research and Development Agreement (CRDA) with the U.S. Army
Sudha Jamthe -- Hi Richard: I
lead business networking in Web-Net Group.
We practice online classes on web-net site with a similar chatroom
as class room.
Wish education coordinator Janet Nichols were here! We are trying to
redefine what constitutes an online class and understand its dynamics.
ChristianF -- Sudha, have you seen the online classes that took place in 1995? They were about biology on the internet and about 250 participants from all over the world attended these. They were the first multimedia courses on the WWW. The Principles of Protein Structure course and the Biocomputing course? They had (and still have) online classes.
Marshall Wick -- Sudah, i am intrigued by your idea of having a course which was entirely chat based. I have never seen a course like that--that is normally only one of the many elements of an on line course.
Marshall Wick -- Ken, great to see you participating in the NODE conference on collaboration online. It is not too late for others to join this on going conference. You can reach it at NODE Forumshttp://node.on.ca/tfl/forums/
Ken Merwin -- Sudha: I see Marshall just posted the URL for the NODE conference; I can also post an abstract of the discussions regarding the NiceNet tool for the archives; some creative copy/paste job!
Ken Merwin -- Rose: 16bit; must be an older version or they have not moved up in the world!
Patrick Callahan -- Ken: Yes, it would appear it's an older version. In fact, they're about to come out with Advisor 3.0 in early April. I just might call Dr. Bahlis and ask if that version is a 32-bit package. BTW, we're also looking into a package the Navy is interested in called TRADAM. Appears to be the only competition Advisor has at the moment in the military community, at least. Heard of it? Rose
Ken Merwin -- Rose - you follow DEOS, right? A month or two ago there were a number of posts about a product developed in the military domain, some wanted to get at it outside of the military, etc. I can't recall the name but I would think you can get to the DEOS archives... Advisor and the other one aren't platforms for Internet, are they?
Patrick Callahan -- To Ken, who replied to Rose-- Some products being discussed include Advisor, of course. The Navy package is TRADAM. It includes media selection for tasks. Another proposed product for media selection and DL course analysis-- Integrator-- has gone out of business. Hope that helps. Pat
Richard Seltzer -- Ken -- I'll be at Internet World next week. That's at the Los Angeles Convention Center. On Wednesday, I'll be tied up all day doing Webcast interviews for Digital. Thursday and Friday I'll be doing a couple of speeches, but should be reachable through the Digital booth.
Ken Merwin -- Richard: If you have some links for the Webcast you'll be doing, Internet World, etc. that might be interesting. Is Webcast both audio & video or audio-only? I've tried to keep current on the RealAudio/Video but that's hard to follow, too. I see you can even get a "personal" server tool from RealAudio or whatever their new name is.
Richard Seltzer -- Ken -- For the Webcasts, check http://www.marketspace.altavista.digital.com
They should be up on Thursday, March 12. I believe they will be in
RealVideo format.
Marshall Wick-- Richard, how about the idea of having us all go back to your archives on previous week's discussions and reviewing all we have discussed and then using the week following to tie them all in and wrap up this great discussion by filling in gaps, etc.
Ken Merwin -- I'll second Marshall's comments re: next week. So many ideas to digest it's getting harder & harder to follow thru on things.
Richard Seltzer -- Marshall -- That sounds like a good idea to me. We have been on this topic for nine sessions now, I believe. Lots of good stuff has been covered, but not at all systematically. There are lots of holes, there's also lots of overlap. There would probably be value in taking all those transcripts (and perhaps earlier ones on the same topic -- from about a year ago) and editing them into a single, summary article. But I'm not quite sure what we could/should do with such an article.
Marshall Wick -- Richard, how about your using what you wrap up as the basis for a professional presentation at one of the growing number of conferences both off and on line. Just acknowledge that it is based on your discussion chat forum input and you are free to use what we have written freely.
Richard Seltzer -- Marshall -- following up on the possibly culling an article from these transcripts. I'm unfamiliar with the conferences in this field (since I am not myself an educator). But is there a publication (print or on-line) that would be a natural place to submit such an article?
Marshall Wick -- Richard, there are numerous conferences which issue calls for papers and not all of them are strictly educational in the narrow sense but include corporate and open university training courses too like this does. When i pick up calls for papers i can forward them to you. I am trying to assemble a list of annual conferences of note also and when i have that list you will get it.
Ken Merwin -- Marshall: I was also thinking of the "Call for Papers" route; the distinctions between education/business training does seem to be lessening. I think that the Global Learn Day II event might be a fertile one for this activity since it's one of a very few that is totally done at a distance; there is absolutely no physical conference, unlike the one here in Wisconsin, etc.
Richard Seltzer -- Marshall -- Thanks. It's strange dealing in this realm. I have a lot of enthusiasm for the topic, and feel I'm learning a lot from these conversations. But I haven't be involved in academia in 26 years.
Patrick Callahan
-- Marshall: Caught your message on creating a list of conferences. Because
of our diminished budget, we're looking for good conferences in the immediate
area, i.e., Minneapolis or Chicago. Being as how we're from Wisconsin,
we will of course attend the DL Conference in Madison from 6-9 August.
It's also extremely cheap considering all it offers. Rose
Marshall Wick -- Richard, while there are a number of other listservs that cover topics like we are covering (Ken mentioned DEOS for example) this is unique in that it involves Chat--i find it very useful as an addition to those lists. It is an example of how chat and lists or asynchronous communication supplement or enhance each other.
Ken Merwin -- Marshall - I agree; this chat keeps me on my toes; I've found myself trying to be a bit more "directed" on chat and like the almost immediate feedback. It's a valuable part of one's "toolbox".
Richard Seltzer -- Marshall and Ken -- We also need to sort out
if this topic should continue in the present form. We've never stayed with
a single topic for this long.
Two possiblities (that occur to me now) -- 1) somehow spin this off
as its own separate chat session to continue indefinitely and find its
own direction 2) segue to related Internet business topics, e.g. on-line
publishing and use of related chat/forum/education as a way to generate
revenue. In the best of all possible worlds, which way would you go?
Ken Merwin -- Richard: I am actually interested in both themes; I wanted to begin marketing Jewelry, etc. from Kenya on the Internet; both to generate some money for our trips as well as an income-generating activity for the craftspeople we met over there. I think this DE forum is great; I'd hoped to bring 1 or 2 of the Global Learn Day folk in and post your postings to them weekly; I haven't found a similar chat although the NODE, etc. are good for threaded types of discussion.
Richard Seltzer -- All -- for me, I enjoy the interaction and the immediacy and cameraderie of these chat sessions, regardless of the topic. While there would be some logic to spinning off something separate that continued to focus on distance education, we would by so doing lose a lot of the community aspect. (It's hard enough getting ready for and connecting to one session a week, much less two).
Ken Merwin -- So many of the African countries do have Internet access but only to the cities. I follow (as best I can) some of the other mail lists (InfoDev - from World Bank), etc. to try to learn about these issues. I also know there's lots going on with satellite, etc. since land lines tend to get ripped down for the copper...
Patrick Callahan -- Someone mentioned Africa. Some articles on internet on African continent. Major problems. If they string phone lines, poor people come out at night and tear them down to sell the copper. Much hope now for the VSAT satellite nets to assist Africa. Pat
Patrick Callahan -- More on Africa. News item that VSAT technology is going into Morocco and I think Ghana to support US Information Agency activities. Army Medical is buying VSAT systems for telemedicine into Bosnia and elsewhere. And this before the first global systems are even operational. Pat
Ken Merwin -- Pat/Rose: Yes, I understand the theft of phone lines is even moving into the cities; the class I'm taking now has a guy from Nairobi; when he last wrote to the class he said their school has been off their Net access due to power problems and stolen phone lines...I know Kenya in particular is in pretty bad shape; our relatives have been in a living hell with the floods, etc. Ken
Richard Seltzer -- Re: Africa. There's a listserv I subscribe to that you might want to check. H-AFRICA@h-net.msu.edu That's where academics who focus on all aspects of Africa (history, economics, etc.) share there insights and questions.
Ken Merwin -- Thanks Richard; I'll check that out. That's the same group that hosts EDTECH and other education-related lists.
ChristianF -- Re, Africa,
there is an effort undergoing in South Africa: Telisa http://pgw.org/telisa/
Technology
Enhanced Learning Initiative in Southern Africa
led by Paul West.
ChristianF -- Re, Africa. Yes, Paul West told us that phone access is not only difficult in many regions, but very costly as well. So he predicted that for many years, it would not be very easy for many students to be able to attend online courses via the WWW. They would rather use e-mail based systems.
Ken Merwin -- Christian: I'll check that group out; I know that South Africa is considerably ahead of the other African nations on Internet access, I've seen a number of postings from SA on the Global Knowledge 97 maillist, etc. Thanks for the information.
ChristianF -- You can find Paul's e-mail on that page also, he is very responsive.
Richard Seltzer -- Ken -- Yes, South Africa does seem far along (though folks there much prefer cell phones to email :-) When I was there briefly last month, the Digital folks put me on a nationwide radio talkshow about the Internet and the questions were pretty good.
Richard Seltzer -- All -- Time is rapidly running out. Please, before you log out, post your email and URL addresses so we can keep in touch. As usual, I'll post an edited/threaded version of the transcript. Check http://www.samizdat.com/#chat Please send your followup messages to me by email seltzer@samizdat.com for inclusion with the transcript.
Richard Seltzer -- All -- from what I've seen here, I believe the consensus is that we should take a break next week (while I'm at Internet World). Hopefully, we can use that time to take a closer look at the recent trancripts, see what holes there are, and what we definitely need more input on, and then continue in a more focused vein the following week (March 19). Suggestions welcome.
Ken Merwin -- See you
in 2 weeks. Ken Merwin kmgraduw@centuryinter.net
Marshall - I'll check your URL out; Thanks.
Marshall Wick -- Marshall
Wick marshall.wick@gallaudet.edu or
emwick@gallaudet.edu Home Page http:/www.gallaudet.edu/~emwick
Will look forward to getting together in two weeks. Will go back and review
the transcripts from previous sessions too. Have a nice weekend
Patrick Callahan -- KimberleyRM@arrtc.mccoy.army.mil
ChristianF -- It was a
pleasure to meet you all. Christian Frosch,
secretary@gnacademy.org
Richard Seltzer -- Thanks to all. Hope to "see" you again in two weeks. Please spread the word.
ChristianF -- Marshall, thanks for the pointer to your page.
Kevin B. -- marshall, i just glanced at your web page and found it very interesting. i am beginning a business delivering educational info over the web. can you reocommend a 'guru' who can assist us with the more philosophical/vision issues of how people learn, attention spans, presentation, level of knowledge, etc.
ChristianF-- Kevin, I'd
like to point your attention to Roy Rada's book:
Virtual Education Manifesto.
ChristianF -- URL is: http://hsl.gnacademy.org/gnacademy/hsl/
Richard Seltzer -- Kevin B. -- What's your email address?
Kevin B. -- my email address is kbergman@compuserve.com
ChristianF -- The book is available online as well as in print form and covers the field of DE very extensively. Roy has been involved with DE since the early 80's
ChristianF -- His book also deals with the way students learn.
Kevin B. -- christian, thanks. that is exactly the type of contact that i need. can you recommend any other 'gurus' in this area that could guide us in our new venture?
ChristianF -- Yes, you might wanna contact John Bear
Kevin B. -- what does john bear do?
ChristianF -- One moment, let me dig out his address.
Kevin B. -- thanks..
ChristianF -- He evaluates and describes online and correspondence courses. http://www.degree.net/news8/news.html He also provides a very extensive listing of courses with annotated remarks.
ChristianF -- http://www.degree.net/
Kevin B. -- christian, sounds very interesting. i will definitely check out his site. may i ask what you do that has given you such exposure to this area?
ChristianF -- I'm doing secretarial work for the Globewide Network Academy and I participated in several online courses. Currently I'm involved with teaching online courses in the field of biology and biochemistry.
ChristianF -- But the main reason is pure fascination of what can be done over the Internet and to see how education is going to change. :-)
ChristianF -- Btw, if you have any questions, please feel free to send them to me. We could
continue discussion by e-mail.
Kevin B. -- i share that fascination. is your email address: secretary@gnacademy.org? i'd like to keep in touch with you. i have to go to a meeting now. thanks for all of your help and i hope to talk to you soon. bye
ChristianF -- Kevin, yes, e-mails is correct. You can also send to frosc000@mail.uni-mainz.de It was a pleasure to talk to you.
Richard, there is one online conference that I would strongly recommend to anyone who is interested in distance education. Although it is called Teaching in the Community Colleges, the presenters and participants are from 4 year colleges and industry also.
Information can be gotten from: http://leahi.kcc.hawaii.edu/tcc98
The registration period is from 24 February to 17 March 1998.
The completely virtual conference this year is from April 7-9.
Please announce this to our group some way.
marshall
Richard thought you might like to add this stuff to an addendum... there was talk today about government software discussion on the DEOS list..... this is different but still in the same realm and might be of interest.
marshall
The US Department of Energy (DOE) and the Westinghouse Electric Company of CBS, Inc. have established an interactive web site to facilitate the transfer of free training and development, HRD, OD, and HR materials from the DOE Carlsbad Area Office to US organizations and citizens. http://www.t2ed.com
Darn. I was finally going to be able to make it this week! <g> Oh well. I'll aim for next week.
I have been interested in the distance ed discussion, and have gone back to read most of the transcripts that I missed, however, I would say that the discussion has gotten rather far afield from what I understood the purpose of the discussion to be -- marketing (and/or communications).
You have certainly had a good turnout of new people, but if education is the direction the group is going to continue to focus, it's not something I will be particularly interested to do every week. I'm self-employed, a marketing communications consultant, and I work primarily with accounting and law firms. Distance education is a wonderful concept and topic, but it's not directly relevant to helping me put food on the table or introduce my clients to a concept that they aren't already working with in one way or another.
I wish, since you were nice enough to ask, that we could return to some more marketing/new technology/advertising/communications type of discussions. I'll continue to participate as much as I can regardless of the topic, but that would be my preference of subject matter.
Thanks, and keep up the good work. :)
Kaye Vivian
REPLY FROM RICHARD
Thanks very much for the feedback.
I do want to wrap up the distance ed and move on back. At the same time, I see distance ed as part-and-parcel of a publishing-type Internet business. E.g., you post your book or articles for free and charge for the on-line interaction -- which resembles an on-line course.
So I want to move on. I also want to test to see if there are folks participating now for whom distance ed is THE topic, who might want to continue it with a separate spin-off chat (one that I don't have the time or energy to do).
In any case, what topics would you like us to do next?
Richard
Have you been in contact with webtv for online education? I have the webtv classic and am interested in learning on the web. I do not have a printer, but would be interested in some small fee to be paid to webtv for the being able to hook up to a web site for earning college credits.
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