Transcript of the live chat session that took place Thursday, January 15, 1998. These sessions are normally scheduled for 12 noon-1 PM Eastern Time (GMT -5) every Thursday.
These sessions are hosted by Richard Seltzer. If you would like to receive email reminders of our chat sessions, simply send a blank email message to businessonthewebchats-subscribe@yahoogroups.com or go to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/businessonthewebchats and sign up there.
For transcripts of previous sessions and a list of future topics, click here .
For an article on how to make "business chat" work (based on this experience), click here .
Since the chat itself happens at a rapid pace, it's often difficult to note interesting facts in particular URLs as they appear on-line. Here's a place to take a more leisurely look. I've rearranged some of the pieces to try to capture the various threads of discussion (which sometimes get lost in the rush of live chat).
Please send email with your follow-on questions and comments, and suggestions for topics we should focus on in future sessions. So long as the volume of email responses is manageable, I'll post the most pertinent ones here for all to see.
Cliff Layton -- I am testing entry to the chat with the intention of joining in your main session tomorrow. It is good to see that Ken Merwin has preceeded me.
Richard Seltzer -- All -- we'll be starting in about 10 minutes, at 12 noon US Eastern Time (GMT -5). As you connect, please introduce yourselves and let us know your interests.
Ken Merwin -- Hello all...I seem to be having trouble with my notes disappearing - Ken Merwin
Richard Seltzer -- Ken -- This chat software works best if you choose the "frames" version. In non-frames, every time your screen refreshes, the message your are writing disappears. Another option is to change your refresh rate to zero, then click on new messages whenever you want to see the new stuff. Sorry.
Bob@CottageMicro.Com -- Hello all - I am an independent consultant/Internet presence provider in the Dallas - Ft. Worth Texas area.
LaFlamme -- I am a paper-based Course Developer for a document imaging company, and am thinking about moving in the online learning/distance education (whatever the catch phrase of the day is) arena. My intentions are to simply lurk for a while, until I get pulled into a morning meeting. I'm also looking into DE certification programs.
Richard Seltzer -- Today we want to continue our discussion about distance education. We're particularly interested in hearing about experiences as students and teachers of courses delivered (at least in part) over the Internet. We want to get a clearer idea of what techniques, rules, guidelines, etc. work best to provide a rich, interactive educational experience. All -- please introduce yourselves as you connect.
hduggan -- Hi, I'm Heather Duggan. I run a discussion on virtual workspaces, which often veers into discussions on distance learning.
Richard Seltzer -- Welcome, Sharon, Mark, John, etc. Please introduce yourselves.
John Gilbert -- Hello. I'm a business incubation center developer and manager. I work with over 50 clients who are starting businesses of their own.
Richard Seltzer -- John, are any of those businesses directly involved in distance education? Or are they interested in doing internal training over the Web?
John Gilbert -- We are doing training over the web for our clients and some of our clients are setting up internet training for their companies.
Marilyn Ellis -- Hello, I am new at this. How do I read messages?
Richard Seltzer -- Marilyn -- You can either click on "new messages" whenever you want to see new stuff (I find that's easiest) or you can set a "refresh rate" and have your screen repainted at regular intervals. It's a matter of taste.
Janet Nichols -- Hi, I'm Janet Nichols education coordinator for the web-Net group.
Ken Merwin -- Thanks Richard; had to restart and set frames, etc. Now I should be ok. Greetings all - yesterday I joined an on-line class at Northern Iowa Univ....based on a note to me for permission to use a post of mine to DEOS...small world!
user -- what is the topic, if any?
Richard Seltzer -- "user" -- we're talking about distance education over the Internet. Please introduce yourself and let us know your interests.
user -- I don't think over-the-Inet courses are bound to be a success any time soon
Richard Seltzer -- user -- already an estimated 5 million people take "distance education" courses of all kinds (including TV and correspondence). The amount of that happening over the Internet is growing at an incredible rate. This isn't a matter of futures. This is real business today.
Bob@CottageMicro.Com -- Before
we get on to the main topic for today I'd like to invite anyone interested
in Local Social Web operation to visit a new site dedicated to a single
community with interactive content provided by the community:
http://www.cottagemicro.com/waxahachie/
Richard Seltzer -- Bob@Cottage -- Thanks very much for that pointer. As you know, that a long-standing interest of mine. How are they letting the community provide content? Forums? Email? Chat transcripts???
Ken Merwin -- Bob - I'll check that too; Ken
Ken Merwin -- I also forwarded your announcement over to our "Global Learn Day II" mail list and the Iowa course I just signed up for yesterday. Hopefully some of the good dialogue will come over here. Ken
Richard Seltzer -- Ken -- thanks for spreading the word.
Richard Seltzer -- All -- are any of you now taking or teaching courses over the Internet? If so, please tell us about your experience.
Ken Merwin -- Richard: I put posts out on DEOS and several other maillists looking for Internet-based courses with a focus on "developing" countries...I can post some of what I found but will have to after this chat...Ken
John Gilbert -- We have an arrangement with several local colleges for distance learning for business people who need help with a particular subject. We also use CBT for teaching basic business techniques.
John Gilbert -- We work with UVSC, BYU, and U of U to provide on-line courses for college credit. The subjects are taught through e-mail, chatting with the professor, posted homework assignments, readings, and lectures. We use a business writing course most of all.
John Gilbert -- The courses are currently designed for students in the geographical region simply because it limits the number of people in the class and most people taking the courses are students at the school.
Bob@CottageMicro.Com -- John - that seems to defeat the purpose of "distance" education.
John Gilbert -- Bob, the big reason for the geographical restrictions is many students can't get into classes, so in order to increase enrollment without increasing class size, the schools offer online courses.
Janet Nichols -- I would be interested in hearing from people who are teaching. I am trying to recruit people to teach classes for web-net but so far nobody wants to do it for free to get the experience. Any comments?
John Gilbert -- Janet, what subjects do you want taught?
Janet Nichols -- Internet-related subjects from beginning HTML to more advanced CGI etc. Course could also be along the lines of doing business on the Internet, etc.
John Gilbert -- Janet, if you need help with business instruction topics, let me know.
Ken Merwin -- Janet - could you provide the URL for your group?
Janet NicholsThe Web-Net URL is www.web-net.org. The class page (which is outdated) is under special projects.
Ken Merwin -- I am familiar with "Virtual University"; am taking a course on E-mail for people who fit ESL definition...they are now charging a small amount per course.
Richard Seltzer -- Ken -- can you please tell us more about "Virtual University"? What is it? How does it work? What does it cost? What kinds of courses are taught? Are these courses for degree credit? About what are instructors paid? What kind of support staff are available?
Ken Merwin -- Richard - I'll post the current courses from Virtual U. and the URL later...they seem to be trying to design a good, low cost model. They use a Java "chat", discussion board and course material on their site. They were free but now charge a small amount...less than $20 if I recall.
Marilyn -- I took and interactive class under Deborah Buell at Univ. of Houston in 1997. Awesome! We were so interactive that students had partners at the other site location, and had to get presentations together using tv, elmo, fax, etc.
Marilyn -- Now that I am out of school and teaching in a regular classroom, plus web development, I would like to get more involved in distance learning.
Richard Seltzer -- Marilyn -- what was the course? How many students? How was it structured? (All on-line, or some time face-to-face). And, pardon my ignorance, what is "elmo"?
Marilyn -- thanks for asking Richard. I had to scroll back up to see your response. It was called a "fast track" course because it occurred in 3 weeks between spring and summer semesters 1997. We had 2 instructors at UH, and 2 at South Plains College. We, as students, were required to learn how to operate the system, prepare powerpoint presentations, use internet (nicenet) for communication between group members. part of our homework was to post homework on Nicenet. Part was individual presentations of all kinds at class. Class was partly our classroom at UH and part was on television at South Plains. We had 2 tvs, one of us and one of the other site. The Elmo was a way that we could project an image, such as a book page. Came in handy for me, because my powerpoint presentation crashed, and I had to use it for part of my individual presentation. what happened in the class was we had a synergism by the end, in that we felt like the students at the other site were as much a part of our class as the ones sitting next to us.
Ken Merwin -- I recently saw a posting for a "private" outfit offering some courses, kinda pricey for a Wisconsonite like me...if I archived it I can share the post..."Blue River Consulting" rings a bell...I recall Tracy Marks name with it and see she's not on today...
Richard Seltzer -- Heather -- Tracy Marks has mentioned the ZDU program several times, saying that the courses are extremely inexpensive. How do they work? Are there huge numbers of students in a typical course? If so, what's the level of interaction with the instructor? And do they have it set up so students can easily interact with one another?
hduggan -- My feeling is that the cost model at ZDU is running into conflict with the teaching model. In the course I attended, there were 500 students crammed into a discussion model. I can't see how that is going to work. OTOH, it takes an exceptionally good teacher to pull off a lecture-type class on the Internet. I'd be interested to hear other cost/style models being used.
Richard Seltzer -- Heather -- I am likewise skeptical of the value of Internet-based courses with one instructor and hundreds or thousands of students. That doesn't allow for much interaction... unless they provide support staff -- moderatos, facilitators, tutors and/or divide the class into sections for discussion. Does anyone know of institutions using that kind of model?
Ken Merwin -- I would think an optimum number of people in an Internet class would be similar than in a "face to face" situation; perhaps even less if our experience this morning can happen...especially with varying skill levels in logging on, setting window sizes, etc.
hduggan -- The problem is, I think, that it's difficult to find the business model for smaller, interactive courses. What's the top price being commanded for an online course? What types of organizations are able to command that price?
Richard Seltzer -- Heather -- I have a similar problem/curiosity. It seems like to get the full interactive experience you need to have a very good student to teacher ratio. But that either means that the course price has to be set very high or the teacher doesn't get paid a heck of a lot. But there are other alternative models and I'd like to hear of instances where they are used -- where the instructor is backed up with moderators, facilitators, tutors: people whose job is to encourage and participate in on-line interaction; and possibly large courses with a single instructor, but divided into many sections for discussion.
Richard Seltzer -- LaFlamme -- do you have any reason for not putting all or part of your materials on the Web? I start with the assumption that real learning requires interaction. Personally, I don't retain a lot unless there's opportunity to respond and to bounce my reactions off of others and to ask questions when I'm unclear or simply curious. That's the real power of the Web -- connecting people to people, so fellow students as well as instructors can be an important part of the learning process. You can't get that with canned courses of the computer-based-education type, or correspondence courses, or courses on CD or over TV. It isn't a question of technology, so much as a choice to put people interaction at the heart of the experience. Then all kinds of mixed media can be used to help deliver content.
Ken Merwin -- Richard: good points in your reply to LaFlamme.
LaFlamme -- Unfortunately, our course content does not easily lend itself to Web-based "training". Our first attempts at DE are more on the "information dissemination" side. We're primarily dealing with "heavy duty" client/server content where our students want (and need) hands-on exercises. At least in our current state, it's difficult to create applications to teach System Administration, troubleshooting, and support over the Web-or via any means of DE delivery. We realize that only certain portions of our content (perhaps course prerequisites) will be likely candidates for distant delivery.
Ken Merwin -- LaFlamme: I noticed Oracle has some pretty extensive courses on client/server, etc. but I would think DE would be difficult for someone wanting to learn Unix, WindowsNT, etc. and have to purchase it to get hands on...Ken
laflamme -- I think the last question I was asked (Ken Merwin) was about content and how Oracle has a DE program that is quite comprehensive-we're still looking into the feasibility of content such as ours, where interaction with a UNIX or NT server is imperative. We're in the very very early stages of our program, at least as far as researching interactive Web training. We need to research network issues, etc-we don't want to have so much traffic on top of our normal network traffic that we lock it up! I know this is an almost impossible question to answer, but does anyone have any ideas of the ballpark investments/ROI on DE/Web-based programs that involve what I'll keep calling "heavy duty" client/server interaction? Applications to use, etc?
Ken Merwin -- Laflamme - a good question; I just noticed the Oracle site since I saw a news release from Oracle the other day regarding some linkages with schools; there's a lot of discussion out there about DE, private industry delivery vs. traditional schools vs. the virtual schools, etc. Economic issues will differ all over the map, I'm sure. I think someone on DEOS just posed such a question; if I see anything on that thread I'll bring it over next time we meet.
From: Barry Rosen I would
like to probe at what people believe is a minimal infrastructure for an
intranet/Internet based distance learning system that would be
acceptable to a business/organization willing to provide additional
training opportunities to their employees. What would be a more ideal system?
Should it be available 24 x 7 or only during certain hours (e.g. before/after
"work" hours)? Should the infrastructure be flexible enough to accommodate
different technologies (e.g. text based, audio, streaming multi-media,
etc.)?
Richard Seltzer -- Bob@Cottage -- There's a little company in New Jersey -- SmartChoice. http://www.smartchoice.com I believe that their product might be well suited for this.
John Gilbert -- Bob, if all of the information is online and available, it is only a matter of time to be able to take the test. We use two different systems, one for instruction and one for testing. Totally different people evaluate the testing procedure.
Bob@CottageMicro.Com -- I would think that an arrangement for test at Sylvan or some other testing agency would be the only solution other than having to take a test at the school.
Ken Merwin -- Re: testing... A good question for a true DE course! I'll see how the course I'm taking tests/grades and post that in. I think it's safe to say that DE is re-defining a lot of the paradigms about teaching, learning, etc.
John Gilbert -- What is going on? I am not receiving any information.
laflamme -- I got booted right after Ken Merwin's last question to me (about 10 minutes or so ago)-don't know if my response went, though. I'll try to stick around this time...
Ken Merwin -- Must be the chat server...looks like we all bombed...
Bob@CottageMicro.Com -- I'm back - looks like Web-Net server hi coughed. Must be the ice storm.
John Gilbert -- Where's waldo?
Ken Merwin -- Just shows us that we need to cope with "tech" nightmares...at least we have electricity, etc.
Bob@CottageMicro.Com -- John - I tried to ask a while back if the lectures you mentioned were on line i.e. Real Audio or do students have to live near a university ?
Richard Seltzer -- All -- I guess we're back. (I have no idea what happened, but it must have been at the server end.) Sorry for the inconvenience -- and right when the conversation was just getting going.
Bob@CottageMicro.Com -- Richard - looks like there was some fallout. Not all are back from the crash of '98
Ken Merwin -- Bob, Richard...looks like some either dropped out or are having trouble getting back; I actually re-dialed my ISP! It's hard to quickly diagnose the "weak link"
John Gilbert -- I am moving to another computer. be right back.
Marilyn -- hello? Is anyone still on? I lost contact for a while.
Richard Seltzer -- Marilyn -- Welcome back. Sorry for the glitches. We all got knocked off.
Ken Merwin Great learning experience in how to recover from a crash and get back on task.
Ken Merwin --Richard - good luck in Zimbabwe; what's the name of the conference?
Bob@CottageMicro.Com -- Richard - sure would be nice if you could arrange a stand in moderator when you go on one of your many trips. It kinda takes the zing out of a discussion to lapse 2 or three weeks.
Richard Seltzer -- Bob@Cottage -- Would you like to volunteer to moderate next week? I hate to have these gaps as well. But it's hard to find someone who can commit absolutely to be there and take charge. Would you like to give it a shot? If so, I could send out the chat reminder messages before I go and ask someone to capture the text for a transcript. I'd just be rather late with that transcript.
Bob@CottageMicro.Com -- Richard - Sure ! I'll help in any way I can.
Richard Seltzer -- All -- Bob Zwick (Bob@Cottage) has volunteered to act as moderator next week. So we will continue this discussion then (Thursday, Jan. 22). I'll post this week's somewhat abbreviated transcript in the next day or two and send out reminder messages that we will in fact be on next week (but without me). Bob, thanks very much.
Richard Seltzer -- All, as usual, check http://www.samizdat.com/#chat for the transcript. And please send me email with your follow-up questions and comments (all the things you wanted to say before you got cut off). seltzer@samizdat.com
Richard Seltzer -- All -- before you sign off, please post your email and URL addresses so we can keep in touch. Thanks very much for joining us today. Sorry again for the glitches. Please join us again next week (with Bob@Cottage as stand-in moderator).
John Gilbert -- See you next week
Bob@CottageMicro.Com -- Bob Zwick, Cottage Micro Services, 103 Vinyard Drive, Waxahachie, TX 75167, PH/FX: (972) 435-2446 http://www.cottagemicro.com ICQ 779704
laflamme -- Doug La Flamme dlaflamme@filenet.com
Ken Merwin -- Ken Merwin, kmgraduw@centuryinter.net, Home page: http://www.peoples.net/~shimmer See you next Thursday.
Marilyn Ellis -- mellis@bayou.uh.edu Home Page: http://www.carmeltemple.com See you next Thursday.
Hi Richard, I really enjoyed the conference on distance learning, and look forward to next week.
In May 1997 I took a course at Univ. of Houston that included how to get beyond the actual operation of distance learning equipment, and moving into interactive learning with students at a remote site (500 miles away).
The course was set up by Deborah Buell, and three other instructors, two of which were at the remote site. From what I understand, the course was even planned on line.
Now, online here is more than computers, email and internet. We had a classroom that had a console with computer, television, Elmo, telephone and fax at the site. The connection was over telephone lines, meaning that the remote television signal was received over phone lines, as well as everything else.
What we, as students, were required to do was:
One assignment was to invent a futuristic product, make up a little prototype, come up with a marketing and advertising plan, and run a demonstration for the class.
Another was an individual assignment where we had to use PowerPoint, and present our topic online, toggling back and forth between the TV (directed at a head and shoulders shot), the computer presentation, and the Elmo. In this presentation, I had to switch halfway through my presentation from computer to Elmo, because the computer failed. I had hard copies of the presentation, and put them under the Elmo and projected them from there.
This was, succinctly, the best college course I ever had. There was enough hands-on learning that I was able to get what I needed to start a website from scratch in June after taking the course.
I also got to go with the instructors of the course to Web97 at Northern Arizona University, where the instructors did two presentations concerning the course. I participated in the presentations as a student who took the course.
I hope that this helps you. I am very interested in distance learning after this first hand experience, and want to keep abreast of what is happening in the field. I hope that I will be able to do more with distance learning in the future.
Marilyn Ellis
PS -- Enjoy Zimbabwe! Years ago, I took African history, taught by a very British speaking professor who was FROM Zimbabwe(Rhodesia). He made the history of that country come alive. I did a report on the Zimbabwe ruins at that time. I still remember it, and hope someday to travel there myself.
Zimbabwe has some fascinating ruins from some civilization in antiquity. There was a big controversy about where they came from at the first of this century, however, later digs proved that they were created by the people who lived there, which is usually the case. If you get to visit them, email us all some .jpg files or something. From what I saw in textbooks and heard of, they are awesome.
I've taken classes at http://www.vu.org, http://www.zdu.com, and http://www.cybercorp.net, and an Internet Marketing class taught online by the Cambridge Center for Adult Education. The former two do involve large numbers of people (although advanced photoshop was smaller) but usually only about 10% participate.
Those classes in which the instructor encourages and asks questions are quite valuable...as well as those in which students post assignments on their web site and the instructor and other students critique them. This has been the case in most of the Photoshop courses at zdu.com. For Pshop Tips and Tricks, I posted a number of my assignments (one is still up at http://www.geocities.com/~webwinds/pshop/pshop4a.htm), and found instructor and student comments helpful.
When the instructor doesn't encourage and answer questions, or critique each assignment, students lose interest and drop out quickly.
Zdu has a cafe where students can bring topics not directly related to the current class work to discussion boards or even chat...as well as ask questions and share recommendations.
This is helpful, and facilitates contact between students.
I also believe that discussion groups help. I'm currently taking irc training in a vu.org course, and am in a study group of 6 people, created for those of us more advanced in irc who can meet late evenings EST. Our group is communicating by email, and will meet on irc at least once a week.
The class (which costs $5 plus $10? registration fee) also has two meetings per week on irc. The first meetings were highly structured - a lecture, and questions and answers in which students had to change their nicknames to have a voice and speak. It actually was quite focused and productive...
The most interactive class I took was cybercorp.net's course on Teaching Online. It's expensive - about $225 - and the course I was in had about 35 students. We had a mailing list, web chat and Moo meetings....and several intensive assignments - some which were independent, some with partners, and some in small groups based on interest. It was actually a very worthwhile class in regard to learning interactive methods, but the biggest problem was getting other students to cooperate over group papers which we posted online...especially with vacation time and time zone differences. The time zone differences were a real problem - especially since we spent much of the course exploring different means of real-time chat and conferencing, and each group I was in had a member spread from Californa to Abu Dhabi. And of course, about half the members seemed to drop out over time. We needed a means to process the emotional issues that came up -- when we didn't get responses, when others didn't cooperate, when all the work fell on one person, when difficult feelings arose when we were combining our writing into a group paper. The course lacked an effective means of processing inter-personal issues. The small group experience could have been more effective if oriented toward time zones, and if the small groups reported back to the class at large. But if one was in a small group of four or five and other members were not very present, one felt very isolated...because most whole-class communication evaporated while small groups were meeting. And there wasn't a final module which brought everyone together again. Also, too many students had technical problems ... particularly notable since we were exploring a lot of different kinds of software and web-based communication systems. I think that technical difficulties are indeed a factor affecting dropout rates in online classes. A helper should always be available to assist students with their connection problems.
Finally, the Internet marketing class was conducted via assignments on a web site, and a mailing list. It had only about 8 students, and several dropped out because the assignments were very demanding. But the few of us who continued gained a lot from the course, despite the often too-long lulls in email communication from other members.
So that's a quick summary evaluation of my experience taking online classes. A variety of communication methods, a means for encouraging interpersonal relationships, technical assistance, a lot of feedback from the instructor and other students, and working in partners and small groups (created in consideration of time zone as well as interest and level of experience) all seem to contribute to an effective online educational venture.
What I'd like to discuss further is what factors contribute to students dropping out or not following through on assignments and what factors contribute to an online course experience in which there are few dropouts...
Tracy Marks tmar@tiac.net http://www.windweaver.com/
I read last weeks transcript today and one of your questions slipped by me.
>Richard Seltzer -- Bob@Cottage -- Thanks very much for that pointer. As you know, that a long-standing interest of mine. How are they letting the community provide content? Forums? Email? Chat transcripts???
The site is in its' infancy stages and growing. Any input and suggestions you can provide would be appreciated.
Now
1. To start with any business, church, individual, agency can post information to either the community calendar or the area related to the topic ( a directory ) in real-time.
2. There is a public chat area that can be reserved for any topic related to the community. I schedule and turn the chat on/off for whoever wants to use it. They moderate their own discussions. I have also scheduled a weekly public chat that discusses using and improving the site.
3. Churches get to build a free web page in addition adding themselves to the directory live.
Near Future
1. I intend to offer any and all teachers
3. Flea market trading area ( may be message board and/or live chat )
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