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12:00 - Kathleen Gilroy
I'm Kathleen Gilroy, CEO of the Otter Group, an e-learning company based in Cambridge. I'm glad to be here to explore this topic with today's participants.
12:02 - Bob Zwick
Hello everyone - I'm an independant consultant / software developer / eBook publisher. whew :)
12:04 - RitaZ
I'm Rita Zeinstejer, EFL teacher in Argentina. I'm interested in CALL, and I coordinate a group of teachers in my place.
12:04 - Richard Seltzer (Re: 12:04 - RitaZ 'I'm
Rita Zeinstejer, EFL teacher in Argentina. I'm interested in...')
Welcome. Interesting. What is CALL? I'm unfamiliar with that.
12:05 - RitaZ
Computer Aided Language Learning
12:09 - Richard Seltzer (Re: 12:05 - RitaZ 'Computer
Aided Language Learning...')
When I think Computer-Aided, I think of people learning separately, interacting with a computer program. Is that what you mean by it? Or do you also do courses that are person-to-person with the computer as a communication device, as well as storage for content?
12:11 - RitaZ (Re: 12:09 - Richard Seltzer 'When
I think Computer-Aided, I think of people learning separately,...')
Yes, could involve stds working separately, from their homes, or in groups, at school.
12:28 - DanV
Hi I'm Dan Vega, and independent consultant and instructor.
13:00 - Richard Seltzer
Welcome James Mansell -- sorry you arrived so late. We're just finishing up. But in any case, please introduce yourself, let us know your interests, and post your reactions to what has transpired here. While most folks will be leaving now, the room will remain open for you to add more content if you wish.
12:01 - Kathleen Gilroy
I'm exploring how to better use the capabilities of information technologies in designing and managing compelling learning experiences.
12:02 - Richard Seltzer
Is the emphasis then on the technology? And does the technology somehow help to enhance, facilitate, capture etc. the content generated in person-to-person interaction?
12:03 - Kathleen Gilroy
Right now I'm starting to see trends in the physical space of the classroom and the electronic space of the online world converge.
12:03 - Richard Seltzer
In any case, please "explore" away. I think it would be best if you explain your concept in some detail to start with. I don't what to break your train of thought until I've got a clearer idea of the concept.
12:03 - Richard Seltzer
Can you tell us about those trends?
12:04 - Kathleen Gilroy
In the physical classroom new wireless technologies, coupled with handheld devices (Palm pilots) are allowing faculty and students to exchange ideas in new ways.
12:05 - Kathleen Gilroy
And when learning takes place online, we have the capabilities of a database built into the platform. So we can collect and use new kinds of data in the learning and teaching experience.
12:06 - Richard Seltzer (Re: 12:04 - Kathleen
Gilroy 'In the physical classroom new wireless technologies, coupled with
Yes, wireless technology (cell-phone as well as palm-based) can lead to lots of interactivity within a class both inside the classroom and out. But what's the connection with "database"? How do you capture the transient content and find new ways to reuse it?
12:06 - Richard Seltzer (Re: 12:05 - Kathleen
Gilroy 'And when learning takes place online, we have the capabilities...')
Is there a particular platform you are talking about? Or are you blue-skying about a platform that should be built?
12:07 - Kathleen Gilroy
Information can be captured in a database and then analyzed in a variety of ways.
12:08 - Richard Seltzer (Re: 12:07 - Kathleen
Gilroy 'Information can be captured in a database and then analyzed...')
Yes, theoretically. But is there such a platform today? And does it capture all the common forms of class-related interaction (as I listed in my last message)?
12:07 - Richard Seltzer
I think of interaction taking place in chat, forums (webboards), email, instant messager, and text over cell-phone. Is there some platform that would tie all those interactions together, saving content, and making it accessible in a variety of ways?
12:10 - Kathleen Gilroy (Re: 12:07 - Richard
Seltzer 'I think of interaction taking place in chat, forums (webboards),...')
And the more interesting applications are the ones that make use of complex survey tools that can be used synchronously and asynchronously to capture and managing information.
12:12 - Richard Seltzer (Re: 12:08 - Kathleen
Gilroy 'For the physical classroom, there are a number of audience...')
I'm not a great fan of "polling". It seems like a useful device for keeping an audience entertained and engaged during a lecture; but it feels very limited. And while you can have people participate in Web-based experienced from wireless Internet devices, that still feels limited. I guess the title "classroom as a database" makes me think in a broad sense, makes me want a platform that is truly all-inclusive. As for Microsoft, do you have any idea how far off in the future their platform is?
12:13 - Kathleen Gilroy
I would not underestimate the value of polling. It is being used in very powerful ways to profile groups and stimulate discussion.
12:15 - Richard Seltzer (Re: 12:13 - Kathleen
Gilroy 'I would not underestimate the value of polling. It...')
Do you know of any interesting examples of good use of polling in the classroom? Any URLs you could point us to? Is there some criterion of size that makes a difference? In other words, in lecture-style presentation with 50+ or 100+ students, used in such and such a way, polling is very effective in maintaining student interest and in helping the lecturer tailor the direction of the talk to better meet/satisfy student needs? I'd suspect the value would be far less with smaller class size. Does that make sense?
12:17 - Kathleen Gilroy
Back to polling: in one of our programs on conflict resolution, we have the participants take an online survey that maps their conflict styles. Then we survey them about where they experience conflict in their work lives. When we correlated these two sets of data we found some powerful trends in how certain conflict styles experience conflict. We will continue to aggregate this data with new participants in the program and use it to inform how we teach the materials.
12:18 - Kathleen Gilroy
I don't think size matters above a certain basic cohort of participants (25 or so).
12:18 - Richard Seltzer (Re: 12:15 - Kathleen
Gilroy 'I don't know about Yaga but I'm seeing systems that...')
I believe that right now we are in the divergence stage of technology advance. Lots of new capabilities, each of which is great in and of it self, but all going in separate directions. I'm reading Smart Mobs by Rheingold. Great book with valuable insights about the wireless/cell-phone space. the P2P goes in another direction. The enhanced versions of Instant Messenger in another. And of course email has always been its own world. I wouldn't expect the pieces to come together in a form adaptable for and overall "database" platform for 5-10 years. That's my wild guess anyway. What's your take on that?
12:19 - Kathleen Gilroy
At Dartmouth professors are using polling to counteract the "Ferris Bueller effect when no one answers a question. In one class on the psychology of learning, the professor asks questions after showing clips of a film. The results stimulate much more discussion than the standard Q&A.
12:21 - Kathleen Gilroy
It is all a question of how you use the information collected and how you plan to use it. If you can collect it in a standard database (or export it to a standard), you can then use it and analyze it. Technology is not the limiting factor. It is thinking through new design based on new capabilities.
12:22 - Richard Seltzer (Re: 12:17 - Kathleen
Gilroy 'Back to polling: in one of our programs on...')
That sounds like an excellent use of polling, since the content of the course is directly related to the process of polling and the results that you get. But if you were teaching history or math or finance, the polling would be more peripheral, I'd think. I see polling as a crutch you have to use when the group is too large for much direct teacher to student or student to student interaction. Maybe 25 is the cut-off line. But I believe that the optimum learning takes place when the numbers are small enough that you don't need polling. People speak up and participate directly.
12:23 - Richard Seltzer
Another great example. Thanks. It's easy to imagine that situation. But once again, that feels like lecture-style, as opposed to seminar-style class size.
12:24 - Kathleen Gilroy
Not at all. We are using polling in a course on risk management which is very quantitative to understand how participants view and manage risk. The data we collect in these polls is very valuable for the corporation sponsoring the the course. It gives them a ton of new information that can be put to all sorts of use.
12:28 - Bob Zwick
Kathleen - is polling your only collection method or are there hidden data collection methods also?
12:28 DanV - Kathleen can you give examples of the kinds of reports you can generate?
12:28 - Richard Seltzer (Re: 12:24 - Kathleen
Gilroy 'Not at all. We are using polling in a...')
Interesting. So the value can be to the folks running/sponsoring the course, in addition to or instead of, its value to the students and teacher. Likewise, I'm sure, the other information captured in a classroom database. In some instances, the extra-class uses of the info might be the main motivation for capturing the data and making it available in a variety of forms...
12:30 - Richard Seltzer
Kathleen -- You've mentioned polling and given some excellent examples of its value. What other apps do you use today in the classroom that are well-suited for capturing in a database? And do you today save any such information in databases? If so, what has been the main benefit of that to you and your business to date?
12:30 - PeteVH
McGraw-Hill has developed a pretty sophisticated class data base sytem that measures how students in a particular class are doing relative to the learning objectives of the course and the content of the text. The instructor can check the class, check individual students and compare to previous or other sections. Works for both classroom and DL students
12:30 - Kathleen Gilroy (Re: 12:28 - DanV
'Hi I'm Dan Vega, and independent consultant and instructor. ...')
In my example of conflict resolution, we generated a report that correlated conflict style (accomodating, competing, avoiding) against conflict experience (where and how much)? This report told us that the accomodaters were experiencing the most conflict, which was counterintuitive. But the professor's theory was able to explain why this was so. It was an Oprah "A ha!" moment for the class (most of whom were accomodaters)
12:31 - Kathleen Gilroy (Re: 12:30 - PeteVH
'McGraw-Hill has developed a pretty sophisticated class data base sytem...')
Is this part of a learning management system?
12:32 - PeteVH
Kathleen, I'm not sure 'cuz I don't know how you're defining "classroom management system."
12:32 - PeteVH
Sorry, "Learning management system"
12:32 - Richard Seltzer (Re: 12:30 - PeteVH
'McGraw-Hill has developed a pretty sophisticated class data base sytem...')
Interesting. That sounds very top-down, management-style, keeping track on students, judging/grading them. Does it have the ability to capture the transient content of a course -- the questions and answers and insights generate on the fly by students and teachers? That's what I'd be mainly interested in. If not McGraw-Hill, then does any other present-day platform facilitate that kind of information capture and reuse?
12:33 - Kathleen Gilroy (Re: 12:30 - Richard
Seltzer 'Kathleen -- You've mentioned polling and given some excellent
We use database apps for stimulating discussion in case studies (also being used at HBS). Each case has a decision point where alternative strategies are possible. By capturing preferences in the database, we can explore the different points of view in more detail and subtlety than in an entirely verbal discussion.
12:34 - Kathleen Gilroy (Re: 12:32 - PeteVH
'Sorry, 'Learning management system'...')
Is this software that McGraw Hill sells? Or is it part of a platform associated with their content?
12:34 - PeteVH
I'm not that familiar with it -- but the instructor can insert new content/perspectives and student can "chat" and discuss. If you go to their web site in the HE section, you'll see it -- it has a name but it escapes me now. Maybe I'll figure it out before we're done.
12:35 - RitaZ
In my place we have an intranet, and we teachers are able to check how often and how much our stds participate, even how long they have been "lurking", there's a database for moderators to consult.
12:35 - PeteVH
The last time I checked -- when it first came out -- they were giving it free for the adoption of the related text.
12:35 - Richard Seltzer
Interesting. You keep coming up with situations that I hadn't imagined. I believe that in the usual HBS case study style class, they deal with one case per class. I'd think that captured data from polls etc., could lead to very interesting followup sessions -- not limiting the discussion to a single 50-minute class. Is that a trend? -- to piggyback on datagathering/analyzing techniques to glean far more from a given case study?
12:36 - DanV (Re: 12:33 - Kathleen Gilroy 'We
use database apps for stimulating discussion in case studies...')
So you're using data collections to stimulate and steer the discussion, rather than collecting performance metrics for the class. That sounds like an excellent teaching tool. Getting wide class participation is always a big challenge.
12:37 - Kathleen Gilroy (Re: 12:35 - Richard
Seltzer 'Interesting. You keep coming up with situations that I hadn't...')
Piggybacking and aggregating is an interesting possibility. Once the data is captured, a group can be compared with the baseline. As more and more people take the course, the information collected becomes another valuable piece of intelligence for and about the group.
12:37 - Richard Seltzer
I think what I'm driving at is that 1) I can easily imagine using such data to arrive at a greater detail and subtlety, 2) I'd think that taking advantage of that capability would require at least a second session (you'd want time to learn from the additional data and build on that). Is that the case?
12:39 - Kathleen Gilroy
Most of the applications being used now are strictly in terms of performance metrics (the kinds of things a learning management system usually does). I think there is a whole set of value to be gained in developing new methods of data management for and in the teaching and learning.
12:43 - Richard Seltzer (Re: 12:39 - Kathleen
Gilroy 'Most of the applications being used now are strictly in...')
Amen. But how far are we from making this a reality? From both perspectives -- the availability of an effective platform, and the willingness of schools to take this approach.
12:39 - Bob Zwick
Kathleen - is your research in collecting data in a wireless environment or in backend data analysis or both ?
12:40 - Kathleen Gilroy (Re: 12:37 - Richard
Seltzer 'I think what I'm driving at is that 1) I...')
Our courses usally run over multiple sessions and we pick up data collected in earlier sessions and amplify it and use it in new ways in later sessions. Unless you are restricted in time and synchronicity, there is no limit to what you can do.
12:40 - PeteVH
The problem with much of this is that, at least as I understand the topic, the student is still "lock-stepped" into a time frame, a meeting framework, and "content box with solid walls." Cognitive learning styles would dictate that this is too confining for some and too "open" of others. I'd rather see the system developed around critical thinking skills -- and discussions begin to move into that direction -- so long as everyone "stays on topic." The learning objectives should be a frame, not a box, for leaning. Timelines eliminated, critical thinking pushed and these technology systems used for that. Collecting data tells you where you've been -- maybe some direction where you might need to go -- but leaves a lot to be desired in the learning process.
12:45 - Richard Seltzer (Re: 12:40 - PeteVH
'The problem with much of this is that, at least...')
I don't think the model we're talking about here is "lock-stepped." The kinds of courses that Kathleen has run/managed typically have lectures and smaller discussion sessions which happen in real time, but also have forums/web boards and unscheduled chats and other communication that carries over and breaks the bonds of time. Whatever flexibility the technology allows, but with enough structure to meet the course objectives within an assigned time-frame.
12:46 - Kathleen Gilroy (Re: 12:45 - Richard
Seltzer 'I don't think the model we're talking about here is...')
One of things I came across recently in my research, which has been true in our programs, is that the best learning experiences combine synchronous with asynchronous learning.
12:44 - Kathleen Gilroy (Re: 12:40 - PeteVH
'The problem with much of this is that, at least...')
what do you mean by "centered around critical thinking skills? Can you give an example so I understand it better?
12:40 - Kathleen Gilroy (Re: 12:39 - Bob Zwick
'Kathleen - is your research in collecting data in a...')
I'm looking at both the physical classroom and the electronic classroom, so it would be both.
12:41 - Richard Seltzer
Once you have that information, I suppose you have a choice as to whether to provide it as a tool for the instructor to improve the course, or also to make it available to the students, for them to glean what they can from it directly. Which way are you inclined to go with that? In the all-to-all mode, I could imagine not just making the information available to the students in the class, and past and future students taking the same class, to also to all the students in the university, or even to anyone in world (on the MIT model of making teaching materials generally available). With the right search tools (not necessarily a "database" literally; it could be handled like a search engine index, so there's no overhead inputting the info) anybody anywhere could uncover useful insights in the most unexpected places.
12:43 - Kathleen Gilroy (Re: 12:41 - Richard
Seltzer 'Once you have that information, I suppose you have a...')
Yes. In theory. Although in its raw form it has less value than when it is analyzed and interpreted. In my conflict example, the data became really valuable when the professor was able to explain why accomodaters experienced more conflict. The students couldn't make that leap.
12:42 - Bob Zwick
Are you collecting data to evaluate the teacher as well as students ?
12:43 - PeteVH
Well Bob, now you're in sensitive territory :-)
12:45 - Kathleen Gilroy (Re: 12:42 - Bob Zwick
'Are you collecting data to evaluate the teacher as well...')
We do collect data to evaluate the faculty but this is something different. It is more for enhancing the teaching and learning.
12:48 - Bob Zwick (Re: 12:45 - Kathleen Gilroy
'We do collect data to evaluate the faculty but this...')
I was thinking more along the lines of pass/fail teacher effectiveness. Like a teacher assement.
12:49 - Kathleen Gilroy (Re: 12:47 - PeteVH
'Kathleen -- in education a often misued and bantered around...')
We also build application into our designs. Students work on real-world plans and projects where they apply what they are learning to their own work experience. This is another critical success factor. They can use the data collected in the classroom in their project applications.
12:50 - Richard Seltzer (Re: 12:47 - Kathleen
Gilroy 'This must be done in a structured way or else...')
Amen. That's the black magic/talent side of education. It's not easy to balance spontaneous openness and the structure/control needed to accomplish your goals. That's why great teachers get paid big bucks :-)
12:43 - DanV
I hope each student could opt-out of any wide distribution of information collected from their learning sessions.
12:46 - Bob Zwick (Re: 12:43 - DanV 'I hope
each student could opt-out of any wide distribution...')
I would say not.In a classroom, physical or virtual the establishment already collects grades, attendence and documents, so this would be no different.
12:47 - Richard Seltzer (Re: 12:43 - DanV 'I
hope each student could opt-out of any wide distribution...')
The question is what kind of information is being gathered. They certainly wouldn't want demographic info specific to them (personal info etc.) to be made available (except anonymously in aggregate). But I believe we've been talking about the desirabilitiy and value of sharing the content -- the questions and answers and insights that are typically exchanged in the learning experience. I would hope that students would be willing to share their insights with other students who are in turn sharing their own insights.
12:47 - Kathleen Gilroy
This must be done in a structured way or else you lose everybody. I don't believe in self-paced material. But there has to be the right pacing so that all styles are accomodated.
12:47 - PeteVH
Kathleen -- in education a often misued and bantered around term with as many definitions as there are people who think they understand it. To me, it means the application of knowledge to real life -- in the case of the conflict resolution -- not just definining the term, not just listing the ways to deal with it and put that on a test -- but to be able to actually do it. An example I gave to some students recently was that it is find to know that water freezes at 32 degrees F -- and that it expands after that. But what good is that knowledge? To some who designs builds, bridges, etc., it is extremely important to know it and how to incoporate that into the design of the bridge or building to keep it from falling down.
12:12 - RitaZ (Re: 12:11 - Kathleen Gilroy 'Another
interesting feature is the ability for data to be...')
that's what stds can do working on a net
12:13 - Richard Seltzer (Re: 12:11 - Kathleen
Gilroy 'Another interesting feature is the ability for data to be...')
This isn't fair. You're tantalizing me. Can you give me a scenario of how peer-to-peer sharing could work in a classroom environment? Is there any product or platform today that provides those kinds of capabilities tailored for a classroom environment? (Does anybody like Yaga provide such packages?)
12:15 - Kathleen Gilroy
I don't know about Yaga but I'm seeing systems that allow peer-to-peer IM among students and TAs during class. I don't know all the details but I believe Microsoft will have these features in its products. This is all very new and unexplored.
12:20 - Richard Seltzer (Re: 12:16 - RitaZ 'What
about Yahoo Groups, with forums and chats and polls...')
Yahoo does a great job, in general. But their chats (I believe) aren't presented in a way that makes it easy to save (and hence add to a database) the content that is exchanged (which is the case here). Yahoo seems set up for transient interaction, to optimize the real-time experience. But for a classroom, we'd want to save everything, and make it easily searchable -- to avoid reinventing over and over again, to benefit from previous insights.
12:21 - RitaZ (Re: 12:20 - Richard Seltzer 'Yahoo
does a great job, in general. But their chats...')
True, Richard, Thank you
12:26 - Kathleen Gilroy (Re: 12:24 - Richard
Seltzer 'Could you describe how your ideal platform would work? What...')
This is all available today. We need good ways to be able to collect and sort information. The online course managment system we use has much of this capability built in because it was built on a relational database. The key is being able to link data from synchronous platforms, audience response systems, and online polling and surveys to a single database and to be able to generate reports from that database.
12:50 - PeteVH
If the "term" starts on Sept. 5th and ends Dec. 20th and the group meets at 12 pm every thurs. -- it's lock step. Some people can learn the content in month, some in a year - and some only sitting in a very structured classroom setting with a teacher leading them.
12:52 - Kathleen Gilroy (Re: 12:50 - PeteVH
'If the 'term' starts on Sept. 5th and ends Dec....')
Our programs tend to be for professionals dealing with complex problems. We carefully analyze how much time is needed to complete the tasks and fit into the work schedule. People don't seem to have trouble keeping up.
12:53 - Richard Seltzer (Re: 12:50 - PeteVH
'If the 'term' starts on Sept. 5th and ends Dec....')
Of course, there are differences in learning styles. And there is certainly a place for courses set up without an end time -- where you are done when you meet some criterion of proficiency, and for the duration have access to learning materials and teachers. But, most online courses are likely to do the balancing act -- trying to incorporate flexibility and spontaneity, while at the same time having starting and ending times and specific scheduled real-time events like lectures and discussion sessions and office hours and chats. It isn't one size fits all.
12:55 - Richard Seltzer
For myself, while I value spontaneity and while it is difficult keeping to someone else's schedule, having a schedule and deadlines is an important motivator, minimizing procrastination, helping me actually get the work done, rather than wishfully thinking that I'll get to it eventually. That's very much a matter of personal style, but I think many people benefit from a schedule (so long as it isn't too tight and rigid.)
12:55 - PeteVH
Let add another element to "lock-step." As instructional designers, we need to have learning expectations -- in the past and still generally measured by exams of some kind. Measure the learing by the test score -- follow the text -- meet the state exam -- whatever -- and as long as we meet the minimum needs, at least our students come out with somehthing. That is the frame -- minumum expectations. But, there is so much more than that and each student should be encouraged to become "explorers" because that's when they, and we as a nation, become "cutting edge." I do a lot of work with Asian students in Asia -- this is an unheard of concept with them and their faculty. They learn the facts the facutly gives them -- right or wrong -- get an A on the exam and graduate with degrees and then can only copy what someone else has created -- i.e. Japan in the 60s and 70s and even now to some extent. They do it better, maybe, but not "creatively.'
12:57 - PeteVH
Richard, but I see that as the general instructional strategy "one size does fit all" if you go to any college campus -- and less then 10% are in distance learning and that is as structured as any classroom -- only difference is you don't need a parking permit to get to class.
12:59 - Richard Seltzer (Re: 12:57 - PeteVH 'Richard, but I see that as the general instructional strategy...')
I definitely agree that most distance ed programs don't do enough to take advantage of technology to add flexibility -- too often they simply mimic face-to-face courses.
12:57 - RitaZ
Thank you very much, it's been a very interesting session.
12:57 - Richard Seltzer
Our topic next for next week is also related to online learning -- "Training ROI" with Ray Vasser. I hope you'll be able to join us then -- as usual, Thursday from noon to 1 PM Eastern Time.
12:57 - Bob Zwick
Kathleen - the marketing industry has developed the topic to a science. Transporting what they are doing into an academic environment might be worth writing about.
12:58 - Kathleen Gilroy
Thanks Richard. Great moderating. Thank you all for coming.
12:58 - Richard Seltzer
Thanks to all, and especially to Kathleen. It was a very stimulating discussion. Please let me know if and when you post articles etc. on this subject so I can link to them.
12:59 - PeteVH
Thanks Kathleen and Richard and all -- interesting session.
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