BUSINESS ON THE WORLD WIDE WEB:

where "word of keystroke" begins

July 26, 2001 -- Testing text-chat platforms: Bravenet


Transcript of the live chat session that took place Thursday, July 26, 2001. These sessions are normally scheduled for 12 noon-1 PM US Eastern Time (Standard Time = GMT -5, Daylight Savings Time = GMT -4) on Thursdays.

To connect to the chat room, go to www.samizdat.com/chat-intro.html

Since the chat itself happens at a rapid pace, it's often difficult to note interesting facts and URLs as they appear live. Here's a place to take a more leisurely look. I've rearranged some of the pieces to try to capture the various threads of discussion (which sometimes get lost in the rush of live chat).

Please send email with your follow-on questions and comments, and suggestions for topics we should focus on in future sessions. So long as the volume of email responses is manageable, I'll post the most pertinent ones here for all to see.

These sessions are hosted by Richard Seltzer. If you would like to receive email reminders of our chat sessions, simply send a blank email message to businessonthewebchats-subscribe@yahoogroups.com or go to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/businessonthewebchats and sign up there.

This is one of the longest-running chat programs on the Web. (Please let us know if you know of ones that are older.) We've been doing this since June 1996.

For transcripts of previous sessions and a list of future topics, www.samizdat.com/chat.html.

For an article on how to make "business chat" work (based on this experience), www.samizdat.com/events.html.

For articles on topics related to this one, check our newsletter, Internet-on-a-Disk www.samizdat.com/ioad.html


Raw transcript of chat session held 7/26/2001, using bravenet and accessed by way of Bob Zwick's webshare room at http://www.cottagemicro.com/webshare , which has been the starting point for a series of experiments in online discussion platforms this summer.

Plus, at the end, a quick test of AOL Messenger for chat.

See also a related article based on what we've recently learned from experiments like this -- Text Chat Choices.

NB -- There is no simple way to capture a complete transcript with Bravenet chat. This was saved by highlighting text in the chat window, doing CONTROL C to copy it, then opening a Word document and pasting the text there with CONTROL V. The buffer held all the text up to about the 3/4 point of this discussion, then the system refreshed, erasing all the previous dialogue. Fortunately, I had just saved before the system refreshed. This is a common drawback with Java-based chat platforms.

Also, with this application (and other Java-based chat), you do not see any dialogue that took place before you joined. In this case, John Hibbs saved the early (before 12 noon) text and emailed it to me so I could add it here.

Organizers:
John Hibbs (HibbsMacIE) from the Ben Franklin Institute www.bfranklin.edu in San Diego, CA, planning Global Learn Day scheduled for Oct. 7, 2001
Bob Zwick (BobZwick, also Bob-Z2) independent Internet consultant in Texas www.cottagemicro.com
Richard Seltzer (designated by > in this transcript, since he was the person recording the discussion) independent Internet consultant in Boston www.samizdat.com/consult.html

Other Participants:
Keiko S -- in New Mexico
PeteVH -- in Florida
RichBartko -- rbartko@hotmail.com
Jim Klaas
Matt

HibbsMacIE> Hi all, and Welcome to this Thursday' Chat with Seltzer.
<HibbsMacIE> You will note that I am in this room with both my iMac and
     my P.C., both by way of Internet Explorer
<HibbsMacIE> While this room is quiet - it is still a little early -
I thought I
     would mention some of the good things and some of the not so good
     things about this room
<HibbsMacIE> The first good thing is it will accomodate both Mac and
     P.C. users. It will also allow visits with both browsers, Netscape and
     I.E., although you have to have a java browser...reasonably late
     version (1999?) stuff.
<HibbsMacIE> More good news is that when you enter, under the knick
     name you provide is a window where you can type something about
     yourself.
<HibbsMacIE> For EVERYONE, that should include an email adress,
     PLEASE!
<HibbsMacIE> For manyothers, a URL with the FULL address,
     includding the http://www.---- no short cuts please
<HibbsMacIE> The reason the FULL URL is necessary is because the
     administrator of the room can "push" your page to viewers. Or, I
     *believe* you as a person inside the room can click on the profile of
     others to see their web pages. Very slick stuff.
<HibbsMacIE> When you come into the room if you want those features
     you have to turn on something called Web Touring. How to find it?
<HibbsMacIE> Look at the top of your screen - p.c. only - it doesn't work
     for Mac guys, at least not for me -
<HibbsMacIE> at the top of the p.c. screen look for the words Room
     Options People More Free Stuff Help
<HibbsMacIE> in the OPTIONS category, open that and you will see at
     the bottom of that category, dialogue box, the words web touring
     which you should click on
<HibbsMacIE> With that in mind, you are no ready to enjoy your
     chat...though one more thing. You may want to size your chat window
     to allow the pages that may appear to be easily viewed....sizing
     windows is part of the whole trick of virtual conferencing.
<HibbsMacIE> let this conference begin...in about 20 minutes
**************
<HibbsMacIE> Ah, here is Richard...Hi Richard.
> Hi, John and Bob. FYI, I just got an email from someone who is having
    trouble connecting to here. I forwarded it to you both.
> We've certainly had a lot of pre-chat-session interest in these chats about text chat.
<BobZwick> Can you reply to them and ask them to use the Human Click for assistance ?
> Bob -- do you want to take charge and act as our guide? or would you like to wait a few more minutes for people to connect?
> Bob -- yes, I'll do a quick reply. mentioning HumanClick.
<HibbsMacIE> I sent an email to that person and told him I was here in both mac and p.c., but only with i.e.
<HibbsMacIE> I asked him about browsers.
<HibbsMacIE> Bob, I think you should change the word from "wait five seconds"...We ask them to wait one full minute when they go
    to http://www.olt.com/chast
<HibbsMacIE> even though most get in quicker than that.
[Thu Jul 26 12:06:16 EDT 2001] KeikoS: Japanese teacher
<HibbsMacIE> I think it is better to wait for the arrivals. We would do that if we met f-2-f...just chit chat until the late comers
    arrive..maybe take care of some housekeeping?
<HibbsMacIE> Welcom KeikoS
<KeikoS> Hello.
<BobZwick> Welcome Keiko
<KeikoS> :-)
> Keiko -- we'll be starting shortly; we're waiting for a few more arrivals. many people told us they would be coming. Are you in
    Japan?
<HibbsMacIE> Keiko, did you complete your "profile" before entering?
<KeikoS> I am Japanese living in New Mexico USA.
<HibbsMacIE> Forgive the spelling - Ohio Gazimus
<KeikoS> I put as a Japanese teacher, but I can show you more if you like :-)
> Keiko -- fyi -- if you click on a name in that list of participants on the right, you see what they entered as their "profile".
[Thu Jul 26 12:08:02 EDT 2001] PeteVH has no profile.
> Welcome, Pete. We'll be starting shortlly. Please introduce yourself.
<HibbsMacIE> Hi Pete
> Pete -- By the way, if you click on a name in the list of participants, you see what that person entered as a
<PeteVH> Hi all -- a regular to these meetings located in central east coast of FL and involved in dist. lrng.
> profile when signing in. Looks likeyou left that line blank
<BobZwick> Richard - would you like to run today's session and just call on me for details ?
<KeikoS> Oh, this is cute.
> Bob -- It's probably best for you to run it, since you are most familiar with the features of bravenet.
<HibbsMacIE> I am afraid it will take a few visits to become used to the idea of submitting a URL and email prior to entry. But very
    important as we will learn as this session moves along...Bob Zwick in charge
> It would probably help if the sign-in screen explained what a "profile" was and prompted you to enter your email address and url.
<BobZwick> Richard - it does :-)
<HibbsMacIE> Note: I am still looking for "Matt" who had trouble getting to the room. Would all of you tell us what browser you are
    using? And whether P.C. OR MAC?
> Bob -- from your perspective, what are the most important features here at bravenet? including ones that may not immediately be
    evident.
[Thu Jul 26 12:10:56 EDT 2001] Jim Klaas: Distance ed student
<BobZwick> I placed profile information in the Web Teacer page
<HibbsMacIE> RichardS, I totally agree!
<KeikoS> Mac NN 4.7
<BobZwick> Hi Jim Welcome
> Welcome, Jim.
<Jim Klaas> Hi everybody
<HibbsMacIE> (Keiko, you will not be able to enjoy many of the features of BraveNet chat room.
<BobZwick> Everyone - notice that when a person logs in their profile is displayed.
<KeikoS> Oops should I come back with IE?
<HibbsMacIE> I say this with relucactance as I am on a Mac, but besides me is a p.c. which I would just as soon touch as
    arattlesnake.
<HibbsMacIE> Keiko, I don't think it will make any difference...but slightly better, in IE than Navigato...your call
> Keiko and John -- what are the differences with a Mac? are they serious?
<BobZwick> now John - easy on MR. Gates
<HibbsMacIE> but the prime features we will discuss today will not be available to Mac users.
<HibbsMacIE> mac users cannot cut and paste
<HibbsMacIE> mac users cannot have pages pushed at them
[Thu Jul 26 12:13:06 EDT 2001] Svetlana: MIT/Sloan
<HibbsMacIE> those are serious deficiencies.
> John -- what are the prime features? I'm on a PC and I don't believe that I can cut and paste either. (unless there's some trick I still
    haven't figured out).
> Welcome Svetlana. We're just getting started. Click on a name in the list of participants to see how the profile features works.
<HibbsMacIE> Mac useres CAN use the private chat..I just checked with Bob to prove that.
[Thu Jul 26 12:14:15 EDT 2001] Svetlana: MIT/Sloan
> Bob -- can you explain how the page pushing works? (And do you now if that only works for PCs, not macs?)
<KeikoS> Scrolling back to see previous comments is really funky.
<BobZwick> Are we ready to begin ?
<HibbsMacIE> Keiko, the entire transcrip from beginning to end will be available and sent by email and uploaded as well.
<HibbsMacIE> right bob?
> Keiko -- Notice too that when you scroll back, you only see what has been entered since you joined. That is a common limitation
    with java-style chat.
<PeteVH> I just tried a copy and paste to word -- just blocked an area, Ctrl C and then Ctrl V on a blank word page -- worked fine.
> Bob -- please fire away.
<KeikoS> Although I like the sound when people come in.
<BobZwick> Correct Pete - Bravenet has chosen to block pasting into the chat client :(
<BobZwick> Ok I'll begin
> Pete -- yes, CONTROL C and CONTROL V works -- but that certainly is a roundable way, having to have Word open to paste the
    info into. I'm used to copying by right clicking...
<BobZwick> This is a FREE version of the Bravenet Chat Client
[Thu Jul 26 12:17:00 EDT 2001] RichBartko: mailto:rbartko@hotmail.com
> Welcome Rich.
<KeikoS> Richard, I read your article.  Also enter, submit don't work first time sometimes.
<BobZwick> Let me list some of it's most notable features
<RichBartko> Hello All
> Bob -- what are the differences between the free version and the paid version and what does the paid cost?
> Keiko -- please explain "enter, submit don't work first time sometimes" Is that something to do with the Mac?
<KeikoS> Screen dissapears, haa.
<KeikoS> Don't know, when I type and hit return to show in this window.
<KeikoS> Sometimes it works the first time, sometimes takes more tries.
> Keiko -- under what circumstances does the screen disappear? when you type text and hit Enter?
<KeikoS> Anytime, I think it is to do with screen refreshing.
<KeikoS> Like now after I typed my message, I don't see a thing.
<HibbsMacIE> After typing simly hit the return key
> Bob -- are you familiar with Keiko's problem? Is there any setting that could help?
<HibbsMacIE> it will instantly upload you message
<HibbsMacIE> The reason it can be slow is that others may be typing at the same time
<HibbsMacIE> this can be a serious problem when the room is under a heavy load
> Bob -- please take us for the tour. What are the main features? what's the difference between paid and free? Please push some
    pages at us and tell us how we can do it?
<HibbsMacIE> nothing to do about it...even msnbc has the problem with 100 users or less
<KeikoS> I still don't see a thing, but sometimes it comes back.
<HibbsMacIE> the same problem will come in "private chat".
> Bob and John -- do we know what the practical limit is for simultaneous users in a room like this?
<HibbsMacIE> I don't .
<KeikoS> Should I come back with IE?
[Thu Jul 26 12:21:41 EDT 2001] Jim Klaas: Distance ed student
<HibbsMacIE> Actually, there is no "limit" to the *practical* application. The t.v. networks have chat rooms that
<HibbsMacIE> go on with the t.v. show
<HibbsMacIE> very crowded and quite fun, but you have to type like a maniac and be prepared to follow a bunch of different subjects
<KeikoS> Sorry folks, I have to try Japanese.
<HibbsMacIE> which is one reason that
<KeikoS> ??????????
<HibbsMacIE> pushign pages may, or may not, be so interesting...great for one to many presentations...harder to keep people in
    control...Bob now must be very frustrated. :)
<KeikoS> some support for Japanese.
<HibbsMacIE> (Bob, that "hands up" feature in Pal Talk would be wonderful here. World Without Borders has it
<HibbsMacIE> My "solution" for presenters is simply to ignore that which you want to ignore and go on with the conversation.
<HibbsMacIE> it can be multi party...I have rarely seen times when people left because of too much activity.
> Bob -- I want to be sure that we cover the main features here, before moving on to Chataway. What are the main features?
<HibbsMacIE> But, Bob, go ahead and tell sus to be quite.
<HibbsMacIE> (hint hint...show 'em page pushing, Bob)
<BobZwick> I'm patient - was assisting another party having trouble logging in
<BobZwick> BRB
> BRB?
<HibbsMacIE> First, all pc. users should check to make sure web touring is turned on.
> That's click on Options, then click on WebTouring.
<HibbsMacIE> You can find web touring by looking avoe the screen and see the catagory options
<HibbsMacIE> under options you will find web touring...please turn that on so bob can push pages at you.
<BobZwick> OK - I'm back
<HibbsMacIE> Keiko, you cannot do this on a Mac
<HibbsMacIE> sorry.
<HibbsMacIE> This is a VERY slick feature!
> Welcome, Bob. You must be doing a juggling act -- answering HumanClick questions and popping in here too.
<BobZwick> Keiko - please try it and let us know the results
<HibbsMacIE> You wait until there is listening going on. And handling pal talk. an dthe telephone.
[Thu Jul 26 12:27:18 EDT 2001] matt has no profile.
> Can only the admin push pages? Or can anyone do it?
<HibbsMacIE> and 900 peoople
<HibbsMacIE> Ah, Mat, happy you got here...I know you had trouble.
<BobZwick> Yes Richard - next time we might use your HC instead of mine .
<matt> yes.
> Welcome, Matt. We're checking out features of Bravenet chat now.
<HibbsMacIE> HC?
<matt> alright then.
<HibbsMacIE> brb?
> Bob -- fine re: HumanClick. But remember, I'll be on vacation the next two Thursdays -- it will just be you and John.
<BobZwick> OK - has everyone turned on the Web Touring Option ?
> Yes, WEb Touring on (under Options)
<HibbsMacIE> All p.c. users should have web touring clicked on, found under the OPTIONS menu.
<HibbsMacIE> Mac users out of luck.
<BobZwick> I will now send a web page to everyone's screen who has Web Touring turned on....
<HibbsMacIE> Bob, pus some pages at us? And tell us if only the administrator can push pages.
<BobZwick> http://www.cottagemicro.com/webshare/today.htm
<HibbsMacIE> (while wating for the page, quick reminder to include email and url here)
<BobZwick> Please let me know when the "Today's Topic page appears on your computer.
<HibbsMacIE> up, the page has just shown up on my windows machine. slick!
<matt> got it here...page loaded
> Got it. Looks great. This looks like a very good alternative to copying and pasting pre-written text into the chat window.
<HibbsMacIE> sorry, Keiko, you can't see this. However we will be devising alternative ways to follow presentations, mostly with a
    web page with URL
<HibbsMacIE> on them
> Can anyone push a page or just the admin? And how do you do it.
<BobZwick> Anyone who did NOT receive the page let us know what machine (Mac/PC) & Browser IE/NS you are using
[Thu Jul 26 12:30:41 EDT 2001] KeikoS: Keiko Schneider, kschnei@sabotenweb.com
> Keiko -- did you see the page that Bob just pushed?
> http://www.samizdat.com/chat.html
<HibbsMacIE> Bob, let's see you push Keiko's web page...or any web page which comes to you in the text chat area? Can you do
    that?
<BobZwick> EVERYONE may close the page that was sent now.
<KeikoS> Hi, I am back with IE5.
> Just testing. Did anyone see the chat page that I tried to push?
<KeikoS> Could you try again?
<BobZwick> I am going to push another page .....
<HibbsMacIE> no, I did not see it.
<HibbsMacIE> Bob, how do you "get" the pages to push?
<BobZwick> http://www.cottagemicro.com/coinfo/bob.htm
<PeteVH> yes
<KeikoS> And it is supposed to show in a browser window?
> Bob -- yes, your bio page appeared. like magic. how does one do it and who can do it?
<HibbsMacIE> yes, here is that page. But let's see some on the fly page pushing.
<BobZwick> Keiko - I am interested to know if my BIO appears on your screen ???
<HibbsMacIE> who has a URL we have not seen...show us how to push a page that comes to you in this room.
<HibbsMacIE> please?
> Keiko -- if you can set up to enable "WebTouring" when a page is pushed a new separate window opens with that page.
<PeteVH> Bio page -- yes
<HibbsMacIE> (bob, the bio does NOT appear on my Mac...appears fine on the p.c.)
<KeikoS> When I click, I saw your name, consultant and URL below here, Bob.
<KeikoS> THis is a lot more stable for some reason.
<KeikoS> Oh, your web page?
<HibbsMacIE> Keiko are you able to copy and paste from this room? from anywher ein the room?
<BobZwick> Keiko - Please click options and Web Touring on the top of the chat window
<KeikoS> I don't see that either, Bob.
> Bob -- From what I'm hearing, I gather that that option is not available on the Mac.
<KeikoS> Just an ad.
<HibbsMacIE> (Bob, we need a photo of a good looking girl...us old guys don't photgraph so well) :)
> Bob -- how do you push a page? and can anyone do it?
<BobZwick> Keiko - above the ad do you see "Room Options People .... ?
<KeikoS> I don't see anything above the ad.
<HibbsMacIE> You can click web touring all you want on a Mac. but it doesn't help you get the page.
<HibbsMacIE> Try again...Bob, my web touring was off on the Mac..but given yesterday's performance.
<HibbsMacIE> Push another page, please...especially one you "capture" from the the chatters.
> John -- please explain "capture from the chatters"
<KeikoS> Oh, you mean menu...
<KeikoS> Sorry.
<HibbsMacIE> Keiko, move the whole bravenet window down and behind that the very top of the screen you will see file, edit, view,
    go, favorites, etc.
<HibbsMacIE> under Options you will see web touring.  That's as far as you will get with a Mac.
<HibbsMacIE> I want the chatters, rick or Jim or Matt or Keiko to submit a URL.
<HibbsMacIE> Then I want to test Bob to see if he can push that page to everyone
> John -- how do you submit a URL?
<Jim Klaas> Do ou mean in this window?
<HibbsMacIE> www.oltraining.com
<KeikoS> scrolling back is working on IE too.
> is Bob the only one who can push pages to everyone?
> If so, what does Bob have to do to push pages?
<KeikoS> I seem to have enabled web touring option.
<HibbsMacIE> No, not in the window, except the URL. I think one of the neatest features ever saw in a chat room was the ability
    toclick on a url inside the text chat area which opened a new window in your broswer
<BobZwick> Any COMPLETE URL typed into the chat room will be pushed to everyone.
<HibbsMacIE> no cut and paste and coy
<KeikoS> May I try?
<BobZwick> yes Keiko
> http://www.samizdat.com/chat.html
> Did that page get pushed to everyone?
<HibbsMacIE> OH MY GOD...IT WORKS!
<KeikoS> I think I got Richards' page.
[Thu Jul 26 12:38:42 EDT 2001] Jim Klaas: DE student
<HibbsMacIE> here is the page...I got it too!!!!
<KeikoS> Now my turn.
<HibbsMacIE> Horray!!!
<KeikoS> http://www.saobtenweb.com/bookmarks
<matt> ww.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99991069
> Interesting. Everyone seems to have seen the page I pushed but me. Is that normal, Bob?
<BobZwick> Each person can elect to allow page pushing to them by turning Web Touring on and off
<HibbsMacIE> great feature...today's works on my mac..yesterday did not...Keiko?
<KeikoS> Can't you make it on default?
> Matt -- I believe you have to enter the complete URL, starting with http://
<matt> i apologize.
<KeikoS> My submission didn't work, but others work.
<BobZwick> The sender does not see the page. They have to manually open it.
> John and Keiko -- do I understand correctly that Web touring is working on the Mac today?
<HibbsMacIE> hey slick.. but it's having some trouble.
<HibbsMacIE> well, sort of working the bottom of the page is going crazy.
<KeikoS> Yes, after enabling it from the menu.
> http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99991069
<HibbsMacIE> Here comes new scientist...who pushed that? Bob?
<matt> printable batteries..  i pushed that.
<matt> just thought it was an interesting page
<PeteVH> www.virtualed.net
<HibbsMacIE> Matt, did you push that page?
> Just trying with the full URL the page that Matt tried to push.
<BobZwick> Web touring is a powerfull feature that can easily be abused by the participants.
> Pete, you need the http://
<PeteVH> ok
> http://www.virtualed.net
<PeteVH> http://www.virtualed.net
<matt> http://invision.esu3.org
<HibbsMacIE> yes, it sure can.too bad brave net dpoesnt offer a control on that...but slick for guys like us
<HibbsMacIE> tons of pages now coming to me
<BobZwick> In a CONTROLLED class students could push their assignments using this feature.
<matt> can a person send a link to a page instead of forcing the page?
> Bob -- great feature. It would be important to establish a protocol about who can push pages and when, to establish some sort of
    order...
<KeikoS> How about just showing to a specific person not the whole audiene?
<BobZwick> MATT - if your just put the www.site.com the page does not get pushed.
> Bob -- what other features do you feel are important here? we've looked at profiles and at page pushing.
<hibbspc> I closed the wrong window a d kicked myself out..losing the transcrip. bob remember to save as you go along in case of
    crash
<matt> BOB -- yes, but the link is not "clickable"
> Hi, John and Bob. FYI, I just got an email from someone who is having
    trouble connecting to here. I forwarded it to you both.
> We've certainly had a lot of pre-chat-session interest in these chats about text chat.
<BobZwick> Can you reply to them and ask them to use the Human Click for assistance ?
> Bob -- do you want to take charge and act as our guide? or would you like to wait a few more minutes for people to connect?
> Bob -- yes, I'll do a quick reply. mentioning HumanClick.
<HibbsMacIE> I sent an email to that person and told him I was here in both mac and p.c., but only with i.e.
<HibbsMacIE> I asked him about browsers.
<HibbsMacIE> Bob, I think you should change the word from "wait five seconds"...We ask them to wait one full minute when they go
    to http://www.olt.com/chast
<HibbsMacIE> even though most get in quicker than that.
[Thu Jul 26 12:06:16 EDT 2001] KeikoS: Japanese teacher
<HibbsMacIE> I think it is better to wait for the arrivals. We would do that if we met f-2-f...just chit chat until the late comers
    arrive..maybe take care of some housekeeping?
<HibbsMacIE> Welcom KeikoS
<KeikoS> Hello.
<BobZwick> Welcome Keiko
<KeikoS> :-)
> Keiko -- we'll be starting shortly; we're waiting for a few more arrivals. many people told us they would be coming. Are you in
    Japan?
<HibbsMacIE> Keiko, did you complete your "profile" before entering?
<KeikoS> I am Japanese living in New Mexico USA.
<HibbsMacIE> Forgive the spelling - Ohio Gazimus
<KeikoS> I put as a Japanese teacher, but I can show you more if you like :-)
> Keiko -- fyi -- if you click on a name in that list of participants on the right, you see what they entered as their "profile".
[Thu Jul 26 12:08:02 EDT 2001] PeteVH has no profile.
> Welcome, Pete. We'll be starting shortlly. Please introduce yourself.
<HibbsMacIE> Hi Pete
> Pete -- By the way, if you click on a name in the list of participants, you see what that person entered as a
<PeteVH> Hi all -- a regular to these meetings located in central east coast of FL and involved in dist. lrng.
> profile when signing in. Looks likeyou left that line blank
<BobZwick> Richard - would you like to run today's session and just call on me for details ?
<KeikoS> Oh, this is cute.
> Bob -- It's probably best for you to run it, since you are most familiar with the features of bravenet.
<HibbsMacIE> I am afraid it will take a few visits to become used to the idea of submitting a URL and email prior to entry. But very
    important as we will learn as this session moves along...Bob Zwick in charge
> It would probably help if the sign-in screen explained what a "profile" was and prompted you to enter your email address and url.
<BobZwick> Richard - it does :-)
<HibbsMacIE> Note: I am still looking for "Matt" who had trouble getting to the room. Would all of you tell us what browser you are
    using? And whether P.C. OR MAC?
> Bob -- from your perspective, what are the most important features here at bravenet? including ones that may not immediately be
    evident.
[Thu Jul 26 12:10:56 EDT 2001] Jim Klaas: Distance ed student
<BobZwick> I placed profile information in the Web Teacer page
<HibbsMacIE> RichardS, I totally agree!
<KeikoS> Mac NN 4.7
<BobZwick> Hi Jim Welcome
> Welcome, Jim.
<Jim Klaas> Hi everybody
<HibbsMacIE> (Keiko, you will not be able to enjoy many of the features of BraveNet chat room.
<BobZwick> Everyone - notice that when a person logs in their profile is displayed.
<KeikoS> Oops should I come back with IE?
<HibbsMacIE> I say this with relucactance as I am on a Mac, but besides me is a p.c. which I would just as soon touch as
    arattlesnake.
<HibbsMacIE> Keiko, I don't think it will make any difference...but slightly better, in IE than Navigato...your call
> Keiko and John -- what are the differences with a Mac? are they serious?
<BobZwick> now John - easy on MR. Gates
<HibbsMacIE> but the prime features we will discuss today will not be available to Mac users.
<HibbsMacIE> mac users cannot cut and paste
<HibbsMacIE> mac users cannot have pages pushed at them
[Thu Jul 26 12:13:06 EDT 2001] Svetlana: MIT/Sloan
<HibbsMacIE> those are serious deficiencies.
> John -- what are the prime features? I'm on a PC and I don't believe that I can cut and paste either. (unless there's some trick I still
    haven't figured out).
> Welcome Svetlana. We're just getting started. Click on a name in the list of participants to see how the profile features works.
<HibbsMacIE> Mac useres CAN use the private chat..I just checked with Bob to prove that.
[Thu Jul 26 12:14:15 EDT 2001] Svetlana: MIT/Sloan
> Bob -- can you explain how the page pushing works? (And do you now if that only works for PCs, not macs?)
<KeikoS> Scrolling back to see previous comments is really funky.
<BobZwick> Are we ready to begin ?
<HibbsMacIE> Keiko, the entire transcrip from beginning to end will be available and sent by email and uploaded as well.
<HibbsMacIE> right bob?
> Keiko -- Notice too that when you scroll back, you only see what has been entered since you joined. That is a common limitation
    with java-style chat.
<PeteVH> I just tried a copy and paste to word -- just blocked an area, Ctrl C and then Ctrl V on a blank word page -- worked fine.
> Bob -- please fire away.
<KeikoS> Although I like the sound when people come in.
<BobZwick> Correct Pete - Bravenet has chosen to block pasting into the chat client :(
<BobZwick> Ok I'll begin
> Pete -- yes, CONTROL C and CONTROL V works -- but that certainly is a roundable way, having to have Word open to paste the
    info into. I'm used to copying by right clicking...
<BobZwick> This is a FREE version of the Bravenet Chat Client
[Thu Jul 26 12:17:00 EDT 2001] RichBartko: mailto:rbartko@hotmail.com
> Welcome Rich.
<KeikoS> Richard, I read your article.  Also enter, submit don't work first time sometimes.
<BobZwick> Let me list some of it's most notable features
<RichBartko> Hello All
> Bob -- what are the differences between the free version and the paid version and what does the paid cost?
> Keiko -- please explain "enter, submit don't work first time sometimes" Is that something to do with the Mac?
<KeikoS> Screen dissapears, haa.
<KeikoS> Don't know, when I type and hit return to show in this window.
<KeikoS> Sometimes it works the first time, sometimes takes more tries.
> Keiko -- under what circumstances does the screen disappear? when you type text and hit Enter?
<KeikoS> Anytime, I think it is to do with screen refreshing.
<KeikoS> Like now after I typed my message, I don't see a thing.
<HibbsMacIE> After typing simly hit the return key
> Bob -- are you familiar with Keiko's problem? Is there any setting that could help?
<HibbsMacIE> it will instantly upload you message
<HibbsMacIE> The reason it can be slow is that others may be typing at the same time
<HibbsMacIE> this can be a serious problem when the room is under a heavy load
> Bob -- please take us for the tour. What are the main features? what's the difference between paid and free? Please push some
    pages at us and tell us how we can do it?
<HibbsMacIE> nothing to do about it...even msnbc has the problem with 100 users or less
<KeikoS> I still don't see a thing, but sometimes it comes back.
<HibbsMacIE> the same problem will come in "private chat".
> Bob and John -- do we know what the practical limit is for simultaneous users in a room like this?
<HibbsMacIE> I don't .
<KeikoS> Should I come back with IE?
[Thu Jul 26 12:21:41 EDT 2001] Jim Klaas: Distance ed student
<HibbsMacIE> Actually, there is no "limit" to the *practical* application. The t.v. networks have chat rooms that
<HibbsMacIE> go on with the t.v. show
<HibbsMacIE> very crowded and quite fun, but you have to type like a maniac and be prepared to follow a bunch of different subjects
<KeikoS> Sorry folks, I have to try Japanese.
<HibbsMacIE> which is one reason that
<KeikoS> ??????????
<HibbsMacIE> pushign pages may, or may not, be so interesting...great for one to many presentations...harder to keep people in
    control...Bob now must be very frustrated. :)
<KeikoS> some support for Japanese.
<HibbsMacIE> (Bob, that "hands up" feature in Pal Talk would be wonderful here. World Without Borders has it
<HibbsMacIE> My "solution" for presenters is simply to ignore that which you want to ignore and go on with the conversation.
<HibbsMacIE> it can be multi party...I have rarely seen times when people left because of too much activity.
> Bob -- I want to be sure that we cover the main features here, before moving on to Chataway. What are the main features?
<HibbsMacIE> But, Bob, go ahead and tell sus to be quite.
<HibbsMacIE> (hint hint...show 'em page pushing, Bob)
<BobZwick> I'm patient - was assisting another party having trouble logging in
<BobZwick> BRB
> BRB?
<HibbsMacIE> First, all pc. users should check to make sure web touring is turned on.
> That's click on Options, then click on WebTouring.
<HibbsMacIE> You can find web touring by looking avoe the screen and see the catagory options
<HibbsMacIE> under options you will find web touring...please turn that on so bob can push pages at you.
<BobZwick> OK - I'm back
<HibbsMacIE> Keiko, you cannot do this on a Mac
<HibbsMacIE> sorry.
<HibbsMacIE> This is a VERY slick feature!
> Welcome, Bob. You must be doing a juggling act -- answering HumanClick questions and popping in here too.
<BobZwick> Keiko - please try it and let us know the results
<HibbsMacIE> You wait until there is listening going on. And handling pal talk. an dthe telephone.
[Thu Jul 26 12:27:18 EDT 2001] matt has no profile.
> Can only the admin push pages? Or can anyone do it?
<HibbsMacIE> and 900 peoople
<HibbsMacIE> Ah, Mat, happy you got here...I know you had trouble.
<BobZwick> Yes Richard - next time we might use your HC instead of mine .
<matt> yes.
> Welcome, Matt. We're checking out features of Bravenet chat now.
<HibbsMacIE> HC?
<matt> alright then.
<HibbsMacIE> brb?
> Bob -- fine re: HumanClick. But remember, I'll be on vacation the next two Thursdays -- it will just be you and John.
<BobZwick> OK - has everyone turned on the Web Touring Option ?
> Yes, WEb Touring on (under Options)
<HibbsMacIE> All p.c. users should have web touring clicked on, found under the OPTIONS menu.
<HibbsMacIE> Mac users out of luck.
<BobZwick> I will now send a web page to everyone's screen who has Web Touring turned on....
<HibbsMacIE> Bob, pus some pages at us? And tell us if only the administrator can push pages.
<BobZwick> http://www.cottagemicro.com/webshare/today.htm
<HibbsMacIE> (while wating for the page, quick reminder to include email and url here)
<BobZwick> Please let me know when the "Today's Topic page appears on your computer.
<HibbsMacIE> up, the page has just shown up on my windows machine. slick!
<matt> got it here...page loaded
> Got it. Looks great. This looks like a very good alternative to copying and pasting pre-written text into the chat window.
<HibbsMacIE> sorry, Keiko, you can't see this. However we will be devising alternative ways to follow presentations, mostly with a
    web page with URL
<HibbsMacIE> on them
> Can anyone push a page or just the admin? And how do you do it.
<BobZwick> Anyone who did NOT receive the page let us know what machine (Mac/PC) & Browser IE/NS you are using
[Thu Jul 26 12:30:41 EDT 2001] KeikoS: Keiko Schneider, kschnei@sabotenweb.com
> Keiko -- did you see the page that Bob just pushed?
> http://www.samizdat.com/chat.html
<HibbsMacIE> Bob, let's see you push Keiko's web page...or any web page which comes to you in the text chat area? Can you do
    that?
<BobZwick> EVERYONE may close the page that was sent now.
<KeikoS> Hi, I am back with IE5.
> Just testing. Did anyone see the chat page that I tried to push?
<KeikoS> Could you try again?
<BobZwick> I am going to push another page .....
<HibbsMacIE> no, I did not see it.
<HibbsMacIE> Bob, how do you "get" the pages to push?
<BobZwick> http://www.cottagemicro.com/coinfo/bob.htm
<PeteVH> yes
<KeikoS> And it is supposed to show in a browser window?
> Bob -- yes, your bio page appeared. like magic. how does one do it and who can do it?
<HibbsMacIE> yes, here is that page. But let's see some on the fly page pushing.
<BobZwick> Keiko - I am interested to know if my BIO appears on your screen ???
<HibbsMacIE> who has a URL we have not seen...show us how to push a page that comes to you in this room.
<HibbsMacIE> please?
> Keiko -- if you can set up to enable "WebTouring" when a page is pushed a new separate window opens with that page.
<PeteVH> Bio page -- yes
<HibbsMacIE> (bob, the bio does NOT appear on my Mac...appears fine on the p.c.)
<KeikoS> When I click, I saw your name, consultant and URL below here, Bob.
<KeikoS> THis is a lot more stable for some reason.
<KeikoS> Oh, your web page?
<HibbsMacIE> Keiko are you able to copy and paste from this room? from anywher ein the room?
<BobZwick> Keiko - Please click options and Web Touring on the top of the chat window
<KeikoS> I don't see that either, Bob.
> Bob -- From what I'm hearing, I gather that that option is not available on the Mac.
<KeikoS> Just an ad.
<HibbsMacIE> (Bob, we need a photo of a good looking girl...us old guys don't photgraph so well) :)
> Bob -- how do you push a page? and can anyone do it?
<BobZwick> Keiko - above the ad do you see "Room Options People .... ?
<KeikoS> I don't see anything above the ad.
<HibbsMacIE> You can click web touring all you want on a Mac. but it doesn't help you get the page.
<HibbsMacIE> Try again...Bob, my web touring was off on the Mac..but given yesterday's performance.
<HibbsMacIE> Push another page, please...especially one you "capture" from the the chatters.
> John -- please explain "capture from the chatters"
<KeikoS> Oh, you mean menu...
<KeikoS> Sorry.
<HibbsMacIE> Keiko, move the whole bravenet window down and behind that the very top of the screen you will see file, edit, view,
    go, favorites, etc.
<HibbsMacIE> under Options you will see web touring.  That's as far as you will get with a Mac.
<HibbsMacIE> I want the chatters, rick or Jim or Matt or Keiko to submit a URL.
<HibbsMacIE> Then I want to test Bob to see if he can push that page to everyone
> John -- how do you submit a URL?
<Jim Klaas> Do ou mean in this window?
<HibbsMacIE> www.oltraining.com
<KeikoS> scrolling back is working on IE too.
> is Bob the only one who can push pages to everyone?
> If so, what does Bob have to do to push pages?
<KeikoS> I seem to have enabled web touring option.
<HibbsMacIE> No, not in the window, except the URL. I think one of the neatest features ever saw in a chat room was the ability
    toclick on a url inside the text chat area which opened a new window in your broswer
<BobZwick> Any COMPLETE URL typed into the chat room will be pushed to everyone.
<HibbsMacIE> no cut and paste and coy
<KeikoS> May I try?
<BobZwick> yes Keiko
> http://www.samizdat.com/chat.html
> Did that page get pushed to everyone?
<HibbsMacIE> OH MY GOD...IT WORKS!
<KeikoS> I think I got Richards' page.
[Thu Jul 26 12:38:42 EDT 2001] Jim Klaas: DE student
<HibbsMacIE> here is the page...I got it too!!!!
<KeikoS> Now my turn.
<HibbsMacIE> Horray!!!
<KeikoS> http://www.saobtenweb.com/bookmarks
<matt> ww.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99991069
> Interesting. Everyone seems to have seen the page I pushed but me. Is that normal, Bob?
<BobZwick> Each person can elect to allow page pushing to them by turning Web Touring on and off
<HibbsMacIE> great feature...today's works on my mac..yesterday did not...Keiko?
<KeikoS> Can't you make it on default?
> Matt -- I believe you have to enter the complete URL, starting with http://
<matt> i apologize.
<KeikoS> My submission didn't work, but others work.
<BobZwick> The sender does not see the page. They have to manually open it.
> John and Keiko -- do I understand correctly that Web touring is working on the Mac today?
<HibbsMacIE> hey slick.. but it's having some trouble.
<HibbsMacIE> well, sort of working the bottom of the page is going crazy.
<KeikoS> Yes, after enabling it from the menu.
> http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99991069
<HibbsMacIE> Here comes new scientist...who pushed that? Bob?
<matt> printable batteries..  i pushed that.
<matt> just thought it was an interesting page
<PeteVH> www.virtualed.net
<HibbsMacIE> Matt, did you push that page?
> Just trying with the full URL the page that Matt tried to push.
<BobZwick> Web touring is a powerfull feature that can easily be abused by the participants.
> Pete, you need the http://
<PeteVH> ok
> http://www.virtualed.net
<PeteVH> http://www.virtualed.net
<matt> http://invision.esu3.org
<HibbsMacIE> yes, it sure can.too bad brave net dpoesnt offer a control on that...but slick for guys like us
<HibbsMacIE> tons of pages now coming to me
<BobZwick> In a CONTROLLED class students could push their assignments using this feature.
<matt> can a person send a link to a page instead of forcing the page?
> Bob -- great feature. It would be important to establish a protocol about who can push pages and when, to establish some sort of
    order...
<KeikoS> How about just showing to a specific person not the whole audiene?
<BobZwick> MATT - if your just put the www.site.com the page does not get pushed.
> Bob -- what other features do you feel are important here? we've looked at profiles and at page pushing.
<hibbspc> I closed the wrong window a d kicked myself out..losing the transcrip. bob remember to save as you go along in case of
    crash
<matt> BOB -- yes, but the link is not "clickable"
<Jim Klaas> I have accidently put myself out a couple of times
[Thu Jul 26 12:44:31 EDT 2001] HibbsPC/IE: http://www.bfranklin.edu hibbs@bfranklin.edu
<BobZwick> The other important features about Bravenet are:
<KeikoS> but no sound when HibbsPC came in!
<KeikoS> I got that with Mac...
<HibbsPC/IE> yes, only sound on the p.c.
<BobZwick> 1. The chat area is saved in a buffer so that the complete transcript can be copied.
> Bob -- drumroll... what are those important features???
> Bob -- how does one access that buffer to save the complete transcript?
<HibbsPC/IE> whoops, I checked in wrong...should have been as HibbsMac...confused in all the ongoings
<BobZwick> 2. The client NEVER times out and bumps you out of the room so you can leave it open.
<HibbsPC/IE> pc/ie should read macie.
<HibbsPC/IE> bye, will return.
> 2 is good. But I'm still very curious about how to use 1.
[Thu Jul 26 12:46:10 EDT 2001] Hibbsmac/IE: http://www.bfranklin.edu hibbs@bfranklin.edu
<BobZwick> Ricahrd - the "buufer" is the scroll up part of the chat room
<Jim Klaas> Could you leave paltalk running and use it as audio while you pushed pages_
<Hibbsmac/IE> ah, easy to go back to your profile and make changes.
<Hibbsmac/IE> Yes, Jim, we did that yesterday nicely.
<Jim Klaas> thanks
> Bob -- but when I scroll up I only see what has been entered since I joined the room. The previous text doesn't appear. Is there any
    way to get the previous stuff?
<BobZwick> Jim - YES we tested with Paltalk yesterday and even with Bravenet minimized we could push pages and talk about
    them.
<Jim Klaas> that certainly expands paltalks capabilities
<KeikoS> Oh, now I heard it.
> Paltalk plus Bravenet sounds very very interesting. (But, of course, Paltalk doesn't work with Mac).
<KeikoS> What was that?
<Hibbsmac/IE> one has to get used to the making sure that you are "on" the application. i.e. when you want to talk ayou have to
    make sure you are clicked on the pal talk page
<Hibbsmac/IE> when you want to type you have to click on the brave net page
<Hibbsmac/IE> I still don't know how to push a page here
<Hibbsmac/IE> Bob, how can I push a page?
<BobZwick> Richard - the "buffer" starts when you login in. If you would have logged in at 5am EDT the buffer would go back til then.
> John. Just type in a complete URL, starting with http://www.
<Hibbsmac/IE> then what?
<BobZwick> Richard - Java chat rooms DO NOT save anything to the server.
<Hibbsmac/IE> just type the url and up it comes?
<BobZwick> Unless you pay for that feature.
<Hibbsmac/IE> http://www.bfranklin.edu/gld5
> Bob -- I understand now. Thanks. Yes, it's a java limitation. But this is much much better than parachat and volcano.
> John -- just saw your page. Congratulations.
<Hibbsmac/IE> oh man, that is slick, here is my page on my pc.  such a deal!!!
<Hibbsmac/IE> now that is very, very slick!
<KeikoS> Richard, I really think I should tour you TAPPED IN.
<Jim Klaas> Is this stuff free?
<BobZwick> Richard - not only a Java limit, but what the host provides in their Java applet.
<KeikoS> It is an educational MOO and membership is free, too.
<Hibbsmac/IE> but, you can't copy from another client and paste into this space?
> Keiko, please send email with details about TAPPED IN.
<KeikoS> Everything is at the site.
<Hibbsmac/IE> http://www.bigredwire.com
> John -- No, that's a limitation here.
<Hibbsmac/IE> tapped in is truly interesting.
<KeikoS> I can copy what is on the web site, too, but you can view what interests you, too.
<KeikoS> When I am typing and a new page is pushed...
<Hibbsmac/IE> I just sent a page for cheap telephone calls.
<KeikoS> It starts typing in the address field of the new windowl.
<Jim Klaas> Did you send the url for tapped in?
<Hibbsmac/IE> keiko, are you receiving pushed pages now?
<KeikoS> No.
<KeikoS> Yes, thank you, Hibbs.
<Hibbsmac/IE> do pages that are pushed appear on the pusher's screen?
<KeikoS> I had that question, too.
<Hibbsmac/IE> http://www.bfranklin.edu/deqa
<BobZwick> EVERYONE I am unfamiliar with the added features in the FEE based version of Bravenet chat. To find out about them
    got to www.bravenet.com
> Bob -- are there any other important features here that we haven't touched on?
<Hibbsmac/IE> Keiko, are you seing a new franklin page about quality assurance? anyone?
> Bob -- do you know what the fee is?
> http://www.bravenet.com
<BobZwick> The free version of Bravenet has NO admin capabilities
<KeikoS> Yes, I did, Hibbs
<KeikoS> Let me know if you want to see TAPPED IN page, Richard.
<Hibbsmac/IE> good, apparently the pusher does not get to see his own page that he pushed
<KeikoS> That makes sense.
<BobZwick> Like bouncing someone, or controlling personal messages or controllng Web Pushing
> Bob, where do we learn about the fee-based version at bravenet.com? I can't find it.
<Hibbsmac/IE> Gawd...I don't see much use in spending time with other chat rooms...I LOVE this place!
<BobZwick> Richard - it's there. You just have to scour their cluttered page :-)
<Hibbsmac/IE> we just have to lean on them to provide some copy and paste options...such as copying into this space here.
<Hibbsmac/IE> hard to write a long url correcctly.
<BobZwick> John - If you like this one you'll LOVE the next one we'll talk about !
> Bob -- what's the label for the right section? do you remember?
<BobZwick> no I don't Richard
<Hibbsmac/IE> can we do that tomorrow and give this one a full hour? or are we all done?
> JOhn -- I agree. This one is great. (Especially if you could combine with PalTalk).
<Hibbsmac/IE> not tomorrow, next week.
<Hibbsmac/IE> we know you can use it with pal talk.
<Hibbsmac/IE> and of course you can use with the telephone...that is if you have two lines.
<BobZwick> Next week would be good for me
<KeikoS> Paltalk is crossplatform?
<Hibbsmac/IE> very, very slick to have the phone, the chat and pages that come at you,
<Hibbsmac/IE> no, keiko, only windows.
<KeikoS> Thought so...
<Hibbsmac/IE> the only good telephony for mac is clearphone.
> John -- if you know beforehand about pages you want to push, create a Web page with links to all those pages and push the one
    with the links.
<Hibbsmac/IE> I am trying to get Bob to work his magic so that Mac users can go to clear phone and windows can use pal talk and
    he will intermarry
> Keiko -- unfortunately, Paltalk doesn't work with Mac.
<Jim Klaas> I m still in the dark about Tapped in
<Hibbsmac/IE> that is all possible with a phone bridge system taking the sound to the phone room as a bridge and out to the
    telephony users
<KeikoS> I am suggesting I should tour you guys sometime.
<Hibbsmac/IE> Jim, tapped in holds a bunch of neat workshops for the education world...very, very large following.
<Jim Klaas> I would be interested
<Hibbsmac/IE> neat people.
<KeikoS> May I just push the page?
<BobZwick> I just found a limitation with Bravenet. The buffer exceeded the limit and cleard the transcript :-((
> Keiko -- yes please email us details. send to me at seltzer@samizdat.com and I'll forward to Bob and John.
<Hibbsmac/IE> Keiko...explain?  are you in the Tapped In crowd?
<KeikoS> OK.
> Bob -- Yikes!

*******************
- we need to learn more about the paid version of this -- what it costs and what you get. I'm hoping you might be able to
    increase the buffer...
<Hibbsmac/IE> we just have to remember to copy, paste and email - I think we can get so we could email routinely
<Hibbsmac/IE> to the subscribers.
[Thu Jul 26 13:00:53 EDT 2001] Bob Zwick: http://www.cottagemicro.com
<Hibbsmac/IE> but it is important to archive as we go along.
> John -- I saved just instants before my screen refreshed. Scary.
<Jim Klaas> What is the frog I keep hearing?
> John -- what do you mean by copy, paste, and email? Do you mean paste into an email message instead of pasting into a Word
    document?
<Hibbsmac/IE> when you now scroll up, you do not see the beginning of this session. I can udnerstand bravenet on that
<Hibbsmac/IE> well, for me it is easy to paste into an email and send, but of course you could paste into word
<Hibbsmac/IE> I like the idea during an event to contiually send out the transcripts of a chat session,
> Rich -- in email I believe you mentioned something about automatically capturing chunks of the chat text and saving it in a Web
    page so late comers could see what happened before. Did I understand you correctly? How can that be done?
<Hibbsmac/IE> though many might find that spamming...probablyu only during gld can we get away with it?
<Hibbsmac/IE> well, one easy way would be to cut and paste and drop into our bulletin boards, then just send the url to the board for
    those who wanted to check
<Hibbsmac/IE> very easy upload...
> If you could automatically add the text from this chat to a Web page, then push that page so newcomers could read it if they like --
    that would be better than email.
<Hibbsmac/IE> yes, I agree.  Just trying to figure an easy way for volunteers to cut and paste and upload
> John -- is there any simple way to automate dropping the text into your bulletin board?
<Jim Klaas> Thanks. Please let me know when the next trial is. ID@xc.org Gotta go
<Hibbsmac/IE> You could also just email transcripts to those who come in the room...
<PeteVH> My whole screen cleared of all messages before Hibbsmac/IE> when you now scroll up,....
<Hibbsmac/IE> at least for the hour or so before they got there.
> Bob -- Is there anything we've missed?
<Hibbsmac/IE> good question, Richard
<Hibbsmac/IE> by Jim
> Looks like we're at the end of the hour. I wish we knew more about capabilities of the paid version. John -- can you afford to get a
    paid version or negotiate for it?
<Hibbsmac/IE> send me the names of the brave net guys and I will lean on them. If not free, the answer is no.
<Hibbsmac/IE> but we have a good story to tell...so lemme try
> I'll be on vacation for the next two Thursdays (Aug. 2 and 9). But Bob and John will be holding chats as usual while I'm gone,
    carrying on this set of experiments.
<Hibbsmac/IE> I have those names, Bob, of the guys at bravenet who talked about firewalls. Are they the prime contact>
<Hibbsmac/IE> email me..Keiko, I would appreciate an email from you...mine is hibbs@bfranklin.edu
> Bob -- we didn't get to chataway this week. Do you want to do that next week? Or try the paid version of bravenet? Or both?
[Thu Jul 26 13:06:49 EDT 2001] BobZ-2 has no profile.
<Hibbsmac/IE> tell us now if chataway compares to here...maybe it is time for some triage?
> Bob -- looks like you were away. We didn't get to chataway this week. Do you want to do that next week? Or try the paid version of
    bravenet? Or both?
<BobZ-2> Sorry - had a Windows melt down - had to re-boot
<Hibbsmac/IE> I believe we should really narrow down who we will work with...including Tapped IN
<Hibbsmac/IE> Bob, is chataway comparable to bravenet...if not, why bother?
<Hibbsmac/IE> Keiko, when can we have a tour of tapped in...are there rooms we could use with these features?
<BobZ-2> ChatWay is the next step up from Bravenet
<Hibbsmac/IE> even better?
<BobZ-2> yes
<Hibbsmac/IE> Keiko?
<Hibbsmac/IE> Richard, do you have Keiko's email?
> Bob -- by next step up -- what extra features does it have? and are all those features accessible from a Mac?
<KeikoS> Yes?
<BobZ-2> At your leisure you can try it from the Web Teacher page
<KeikoS> kschnei@sabotenweb.com
<Hibbsmac/IE> Keiko..a) please email me..hibbs@bfranklin.edu
<KeikoS> You can also mail contactus@tappedin.org
<BobZ-2> All of the chat rooms we have tested are available in the pull down menu * Helpfule Link *
> John -- I believe I forwarded to you an email he sent me yesterday.
<BobZ-2> Click Sample Chat Rooms any time you visit Web Teacher.
> Bob -- obviously I'm curious. What's the main extra feature in chataway that you like?
<KeikoS> I was in fact writing a message... Sorry for multitasking... :(
<Hibbsmac/IE> I captured it from the p.c. nd sent to myself. hard for me to like a room where you cannot cut and paste...I will lean
    on that for Mac
<BobZ-2> Richard - I lost the transcript
<Hibbsmac/IE> Keiko.we should have a tour of tapped in...would they have rooms we should use.
<BobZ-2> If you can highlight and save what you have.
<Hibbsmac/IE> Bob, why is ChatWay better than bravenet.
> Bob -- I saved the first 50 minutes and will now save again.
<BobZ-2> whew - Thanks Richard
> Bob -- I'll send it all to you as soon as we're done. Is it easier to capture a transcript with chatway? does it have this neat page
    push capability? and what extras does it have? and all for free?
<Hibbsmac/IE> I am not sure what I was able to save on the p.c., but I saved and just sent to myself
<BobZ-2> John - my mind is overloaded - test it out and we'll talk about all of the great features next week.
<Hibbsmac/IE> ah, come on, Big Texan...tell us more now...a little desert.
> Bob -- let's wrap up for now, with the assumption that next week you'll focus on chataway. (I'm still curious about the paid version
    of this one though).
<Hibbsmac/IE> shucks, we lost keiko...tapped in is a big, big group!
<BobZ-2> Found another NEGATIVE about Bravenet
<Hibbsmac/IE> what negative?
<BobZ-2> It won't work with Windows 2000
<Hibbsmac/IE> typical Gates
<matt> works fine with Win2K right here...
<matt> so far anyway
> Bob -- That's strange. I'm using Windows ME with no problem.
<Hibbsmac/IE> heck, pushing pages and copy and paste into an email client...what more can you ask for.
<BobZ-2> Hold on a min
<Hibbsmac/IE> from that it would be easy for others to, virtually, upload or do multi tasking.
[Thu Jul 26 13:14:27 EDT 2001] Bob Zwick: http://www.cottagemicro.com
> Bob and John -- remember, I'll be away the next two Thursdays (Aug. 2 and 9). Please plan, send out chat reminders, etc. And I'll
    catch up with you when I get back. Thanks very much. Good stuff.
<Bob Zwick> I take that back - I am on W2k now. Another person had W2k problems which may have been firewqall related
<matt> bob - i am unsure what my problem was, perhaps a buggy version of IE or something related.
<matt> at any rate, it is working fine with my Windows 2000 SP2 workstation right now
<BobZ-2> Matt was that you in the Help Room ?
<matt> yes it was
<Hibbsmac/IE> matt did you try with navigator?
<BobZ-2> Ahh
<matt> did not work either
<Hibbsmac/IE> I tried that before...
> Thanks to all. I'll be signing off now. Great session, Bob and John. I'll email you the transcript pronto and post it (unedited on the
    Web) linking to it from http://www.samizdat.com/chat.html



A quick test of AOL Messenger for chat.

NB -- As a followup to the regular chat session, Matt invited us to join him in an AOL Messenger chat room. The names here are AOL handles. To create such a multi-person chat room, you need to invite people by name, and all the participants need to have the software installed on their systems, and need to be registered AOL Messenger members. In other words, this platform is not designed for holding open public chat sessions. It is, however, well-suited for meetings among people who already know one another. It was very easy to save the transcript, using an easily found command in the application.

You have just entered room "test chat room."
rwseltzer: Hi.
bobzwick2 has entered the room.
Matt Virus: everyone here?
rwseltzer: Aha -- I didnt' realize you could
have more than two people in an AIM room.
What's the limit?
Matt Virus: i am unsure of the limit.
bobzwick2: need slikkc
Matt Virus: but i have had 40+ ppl in a room
before
rwseltzer: slikkc?
rwseltzer: Is ICQ similar in allowing more than
two in a room?
Matt Virus: icq is not so pretty.
Matt Virus: it's really not prohibitive, though it
does work.
rwseltzer: And how did you make this
happen? How did we all three end up in the
same place?
Matt Virus: i invited you all to a buddy chat
room
rwseltzer: How did you open up a "buddy
chat room"?
Matt Virus: in the IM main window, under
PEOPLE...scroll down to "send buddy chat
invitation"
Matt Virus: or now that you are in the room,
under the PEOPLE menu, there is an invite
option..  "invite a buddy"
Matt Virus: and you can invite people into the
room
rwseltzer: On my screen that option isn't
active. Can't click on it. Is that because I'm
already in such a room?
johnwhibbs has entered the room.
rwseltzer: To invite folks, I suppose you have
to have their AIM handles.
rwseltzer: Welcome, John.
Matt Virus: yes, you need their buddy names
johnwhibbs: wow, here I am
Matt Virus: yes john, i invited you in
johnwhibbs: somehow got here automatically!
Matt Virus: i sent you an invitation.
bobzwick2: ok cool
Matt Virus: and you just had to click on it to
get in
johnwhibbs: thank you. how did you know my
screen name?
johnwhibbs: I just got the registrztion myself
Matt Virus: you sent it in the bravenet forum
rwseltzer: This could be good for regular
meetings of folks who know one another. But it
wouldn't work for public
johnwhibbs: johnwhibbs?
Matt Virus: yes.
rwseltzer: Also, I see there's a very short limit
on the size of messages -- can't even type two
full lines.
johnwhibbs: well, it would if you told them in
advance they had to download, as they do with
real auido, pal talk
johnwhibbs: oh, I see you cant type very long
Matt Virus: i had not noticed that before, the
limit thing
johnwhibbs: they have to download like pal
talk
johnwhibbs: and real audioi
johnwhibbs: but, very short messages that is
sure
Matt Virus: that is unfortunate.
Matt Virus: however, with private messages
there is a much much longer limit.
bobzwick2: TODAY'S  TOPIC
johnwhibbs: how do we go to a "bigger"
room? with more features
rwseltzer: This is neat for regular meetings
among a fixed group of people.
Matt Virus: right
bobzwick2: TODAY'S  TOPIC
johnwhibbs: where is today's topic?
rwseltzer: I'd much prefer something like
bravenet for a public gathering, where you
don't know the participants
johnwhibbs: http://www.bfranklin.edu
johnwhibbs: ah, that is a nice feature...that I
like, clickable links inside the text room
rwseltzer: Yes, the link is clickable. That's
good.
johnwhibbs: better than page pushing, right>
bobzwick2: um - I'm trying to enter a url but it
says it's too long
Matt Virus: bob - click the "link" button
Matt Virus: enter the text for your link, and
enter the URL there too.
rwseltzer: http://www.bfranklin.edu/
johnwhibbs: nice, thanks for the tip.
Matt Virus: it'll let you use a LONG url
rwseltzer: Just testing -- yes you can paste
into this box. That's good.
johnwhibbs: but can I copy and paste from the
chat room area?
bobzwick2: Today's Topic
Matt Virus: yes you can john
johnwhibbs: god this is very fast
Matt Virus: yes, and it does spiffy little smiley
faces too lol :-)
johnwhibbs: Signing in now John. Regards,
Colette
rwseltzer: The link button is good. Anyway to
save the transcript?
johnwhibbs: ah, also allow me to copy from
another application and drop into here
Matt Virus: under the FILE menu....
Matt Virus: SAVE...
johnwhibbs: that is importatn..but we need to
have a longer message
Matt Virus: saves in HTML format
johnwhibbs: space
johnwhibbs: what are the talk icons to the right
all about?
Matt Virus: it does voice chat also.
Matt Virus: built in.
rwseltzer: Very interesting. Main limitation
seems to be very short messages, and needing
to know everyone's name
johnwhibbs: I see I can send  message
privately
Matt Virus: yes you can john.
rwseltzer: When you do voice, can you do
text chat simultaneously?
johnwhibbs: how do you do voice?
Matt Virus: I believe, though i am unsure.
Matt Virus: just click the voice button...
Matt Virus: i don't think it will let you talk to
everyone though unfortunately either
Matt Virus: just one person at a time
rwseltzer: John I hear you
rwseltzer: How do I talk?
Matt Virus: and you need to have a new(er)
version of the software to voice chat
bobzwick2: where is the voice button ?
Matt Virus: it is on the right, below the buddy
list of who is in the chatroom.
Matt Virus: it is labeled "talk"
rwseltzer: Voice is just one to one. But works
very well.
bobzwick2: I see IM, Ignore & Info
Matt Virus: yes, that is correct
bobzwick2: no voice
Matt Virus: bob - perhaps you need a newer
version of the software.
Matt Virus: you must have a (semi) current
version.
rwseltzer: Bob -- the voice seems to be just
one-to-one. John and I had a quick good
conversation.
bobzwick2: probably so
johnwhibbs has left the room.
bobzwick2: is there an easy way to upgrade ?
rwseltzer: The version I'm using is 4.90
Matt Virus: john - i am behind a VERY tight
firewall and the traffic may not be allowed
for me to talk with you.
rwseltzer: I have to run. I'll capture this
transcript and add it to the other. This is an
important alternative.
Matt Virus: bob - if you just download a
newer version it'll upgrade and save your
buddylist.
rwseltzer: Thanks very much.
Matt Virus: also bob - somewhere there is an
upgrade feature, though i forget exactly
where it hides at.
bobzwick2: I can do that on the AIM website
- right
 


Previous transcripts and schedule of upcoming chats -- www.samizdat.com/chat.html

To connect to the chat room, go to www.samizdat.com/chat-intro.html

The full text of Richard Seltzer's books The Social Web, Take Charge of Your Web Site, Shop Online the Lazy Way, and The Way of the Web, plus more than a hundred related articles are available on CD ROM My Internet: a Personal View of Internet Business Opportunities.

Web Business Boot Camp: Hands-on Internet lessons for manager, entrepreneurs, and professionals by Richard Seltzer (Wiley, 2002). No-nonsense guide targets activities that anyone can perform to achieve online business
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