This is the edited transcript of a live chat session that took place Thursday, May 2, 2002. These sessions are normally scheduled for 12 noon-1 PM US Eastern Time on Thursdays (when we are on standard time that is GMT -5; on daylight savings time, that is GMT -4).
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All -- we've reached the magic hour of noon.
Please introduce yourselves and let us know your interests. Our guest
today is Ken Ingham from Amazability.
11:57 - BobZwick
Hello everyone. Bob Zwick here - software developer/consultant
in the Dallas Texas area. I'm involved in e-Publishing
and e-Education. I'm am constantly looking
for ways to include disadvantaged people in both of these projects.
11:58 - Bob Fleischer
Bob Fleischer, Compaq Professional Services (but not for long)
12:00 - Richard Seltzer
Peabo -- can you please introduce yourself?
(Bob Zwick and Bob Fleischer are both frequent chatters here... I guess
they should be earning frequent chatter miles...)
12:01 - peabo
I'm actually just lurking. I'm a programmer who is interested in adaptive technology.
12:14 - Richard Seltzer
Welcome RotoJr. Please introduce yourself and
let us know your interests. Then please dive in.
12:15 - RotoJr (Re: 12:14 - Richard Seltzer 'Welcome RotoJr. Please introduce yourself and let us know your...')
Hi, I'm Bob Fleischer's daughter - just interested in the topic.
12:17 - Richard Seltzer
Welcome, PeteVH. Please introduce yourself, let us know your interests, and dive in.
12:24 - Richard Seltzer
Welcome, Lisa Neal. Please introduce yourself and let us know your interests and dive in.
12:45 - Richard Seltzer
Welcome, John Hibbs, glad you could make it.
We started (as usual) at noon Eastern Time). Please introduce yourself
and ask lots of good questions quickly :-)
12:47 - Richard Seltzer
All -- fyi -- John Hibbs runs Global Learn
Day -- a major worldwide 24-hour event. The process of organizing it and
getting volunteers from everywhere puts him
in touch with the top distance ed people everywhere.
Ken -- to start things off, can you please
tell us something about your self and your company and what you are doing
that is unique.
12:00 - Kenneth Ingham
Hi Everyone. I am a graduate of BU and Brandeis
with a Ph.D. in physics. However, I have worked all my professional
career building companies specializing in
data communications.
12:01 - Kenneth Ingham
Amazability, Inc. is developing the adept1000,
which is to provide full speech interaction for
applications running in a Linux environment.
The speech - both text-to-speech output and automatic speech recognition
-
are being configured as alternate access methods
to the standard keyboard and monitor. Our approach is to replace
these visually oriented access devices by
a full speech interface wherein all software, including the Linux operating
system, are fully available in "native mode".
12:02 - Kenneth Ingham
We are adding to the huge amount of software
already available with Linux, applications designed for speech operation.
In effect, we are not adapting the visual
software with screen reader technology, but are providing a simpler and
easier to
use alternative.
Our applications include word processing, note taking and retrieval, email, and web browsing.
We are also implementing modules to interpret
and make available the information in existing applications so that the
visually imaired user can move his or her
work to and from existing commercial software.
12:01 - Richard Seltzer
Ken -- You mentioned that you are building
interactive voice applications and that you aren't just adapting existing
graphic applications for voice. Can you please
explain, and tell us something about your current and future products.
Can you explain what you mean by "native mode"
in this context, and what difference that makes?
email followup from Kenneth Ingham
We are replacing the monitor/keyboard with a completely equivalent voice12:13 - Richard Seltzer
"console". Thus, anything that would be ddisplayed on the monitor is sent
to our voice output, at which point we filter it. Therefore, since
everything Linux would like displayed is sent to us, I call this "native
mode". I am sure there is a better name for it.
Ken -- I'm still trying to figure out what
is gained by building "native voice" applications, rather than adapting
existing
applications. For instance, with the word
processing, do you forget formatting (bold, italic, font, type size, etc.)
and focus
on the words because the user won't be able
to see the formatting?
email followup from Kenneth Ingham
We do not forget the inkprint forms/styles and have mechanisms to permit12:03 - Richard Seltzer
the user to learn about them or to specify these during composition or
post-composition. However, the key is the efficient imparting of
information, which in voice is best done by providing the best possible
voicing - like that in a normal conversation. Such voicing should be done
without the need to reference a two-dimensional format or styles.
Ken -- Are your voice applications only for
the use of the blind? Or (like Dragon's voice recognition), might they
be
useful for everyone (just a different mode
of working)?
12:05 - Kenneth Ingham
We are specifically designing for the visually
impaired, knowing full well that what we are building will apply to the
rest of
society - anyone "hands-busy" or using telephones,
etc.
12:14 - Kenneth Ingham (Re: 12:06 - Richard Seltzer 'Ken -- I'd really like to know what makes your...')
We are looking for the right balances between
simplicity and complexity and between lots of manipulation and
productivity. Moreover, good applications
that achieve these balances must provide appropriate verbal cues and assist
in
audio presentation. By controlling the applications
we are able to output additional formatting information to our a.format
filters.
12:15 - Bob Fleischer (Re: 12:13 - Richard Seltzer 'Ken -- I'm still trying to figure out what is...')
I can certainly see that radical redesign of an application might be required in the case of a radically different input mode
12:04 - BobZwick
Ken - what is your reasoning behind moving to Linux - are you a MS revolutionist ? :-)
12:08 - Kenneth Ingham (Re: 12:04 - BobZwick 'Ken - what is your reasoning behind moiving to Linux...')
We are certainly not opposed to Microsoft or
any other vendor, e.g. Apple. However, we have full access to Linux
code, both os and applications, and given
our alternative access mode approach, we believe we will get the most
mileage from doing it first.
12:04 - Bob Fleischer
sounds like it would be fun on a handheld -- I'd suggest the iPAQ :-)
12:17 - Bob Fleischer
Seriously, I was wondering to what extent you
had tried your technologies and applications in the handheld form factor
-- the iPAQ makes a very good Linux platform
(though we tend not to talk about it)
email followup from Kenneth Ingham
We are certainly targeting machines of the iPAQ size, although doing the12:28 - BobZwick(2)
implementation is a later step. As I stated elsewhere, the adept1000 can
serve as its own developemnt platform and larger machines are easier to
work right now. We are also interested in making accessible as much of the
public domain software as possible and, again, a fully loaded platform enables this.
Ken - are you modifying the Linux Operating System to operate with your software ?
email followup from Kenneth Ingham
No, we are not modifying Linux. Rather, we are creating voice drivers12:32 - Richard Seltzer
that are compatible with the Linux structure ala Redhat, etc.
Ken -- Sounds like you are in beta-testing
mode now and have not yet begun to ship retail to consumers. Is that
accurate? If so, when do you expect to do
your official product launch? And will that launch include selling your
suite of
software pre-installed on a Linux PC?
12:33 - Kenneth Ingham
Your comment concerning Linux is well taken.
However, integration for adaptive technology with any operating system
is difficult for the visually impaired. We
will have to help, although we would prefer to induce a hardware manufacturer
to
offer the full hardware/software combination.
12:33 - BobZwick(2)
Richard - Fryes Electronics just started selling
Linux systems complete Internet ready for under $300... I think the Linux
OS may catch on if that continues.
12:34 - Richard Seltzer (Re: 12:33 - Kenneth Ingham 'Your comment concerning Linux is well taken. However, integration...')
Are there any major PC manufacturers shipping their PCs with Linux today? (Pardon my ignorance).
12:35 - Richard Seltzer (Re: 12:33 - BobZwick(2) 'Richard - Fryes Electronics just started selling Linux systems complete...')
Bob Zwick -- thanks. I hadn't heard of Fryes
Electronics. Any big names daring to do it (and risking the wrath of
Microsoft)? It's amazing how much of the cost
of a PC today is for Microsoft software .
12:35 - BobZwick(2)
Richard - IBM is selling Linux servers now.
12:40 - Bob Fleischer (Re: 12:35 - BobZwick(2) 'Richard - IBM is selling Linux servers now....')
Compaq sells more linux servers than
anybody (so I'm told).
12:40 - Kenneth Ingham
Your higher end handhelds can support our applications.
However, we are initially targeting portables/laptops and above
in order to accomodate the large footprint
needed for good speech. We will look to shrink the adept1000 for later
release on smaller machines.
We believe that the Linux environment lends
itself to co-support of other technologies, e.g. electronic books and ocr,
and we would look to integrating these later.
12:42 - Richard Seltzer
Ken -- what do you mean by footprint? do you
mean disk size etc.? (certainly not physical size, or am I missing
something? I thought one of the major advantages
of voice was that you could operate without a keyboard).
12:48 - Kenneth Ingham
Richard, by footprint I mean storage requirements.
A handheld must fit the os, speech engines, applications, user data,
and lots of speech tables, etc.
12:40 - Richard Seltzer
Ken -- I've often been tempted by Linux. I
even bought the RedHat (did I remember the name right?) version a couple
years ago. But I was totally stymied when
it came to installation. Purportedly you could run both Linux and Windows
on
the same PC. But it looked like you had to
reformat your disk, erasing everything you had before. That wasn't something
I was willing to do with an existing, useful
PC. Hence I figured that I'd only make the change when buying a new PC.
But
then I was stymied by the universality of
Microsoft applications. People I dealt with insisted that I send them documents
in Word, etc. Do you have any way to get around
these frustrating barriers?
12:43 - Bob Fleischer (Re: 12:40 - Richard Seltzer 'Ken -- I've often been tempted by Linux. I even...')
http://www.openoffice.org/ -- just announced
their "product" release of a free, open source office suite
12:43 - Kenneth Ingham
We routinely install Linux and Windows on the
same machine. In addition current versions of Linux from Redhat,
Mandrake, etc. are pretty clean with regard
to their installation. Basically only a couple of questions, e.g. user
name and
network address, are required.
When you say "word processing" do you mean
writing by speaking (voice recognition)? If so can you compare you
approach to that of Dragon?
12:05 - Richard Seltzer
Ken -- It sounds like you are coming up with
an entire suite of office applications that do not depend on Microsoft.
Is
that the case?
12:06 - Richard Seltzer
Ken -- I'd really like to know what makes your
applications unique. By not adapting existing visual applications what
do
you gain? (To offset what is lost because
people are so used to Microsoft Office etc.)
email followup from Kenneth Ingham
In addition to the complexity trade-offs, we are particularly keen on12:06 - Kenneth Ingham
improving productivity. Screen readers require one to "know" the screen
and maneuver around it. We eliminate this through direct commands
indicating what you, the user, wants. Of course, hands-busy/eyes-busy and
telephone users don't even have screens to explore.
Areas receiving particular attention include:
- Implementation of applications to enhance
speech use, e.g. simple verbal or keyboard command set, audio responses
designed for speed and appropriateness. The
goal is to maximize productivity.
- The presentation of structured information
with cues to improve readibility. Our speech formatting interface, a.format,
is
being implemented to support audio output
management, as well as the dynamic replacement of simple narrative
verbalization by special "filters" that allow
for the presentation of technical information, tables, spreadsheets, etc.
A.format can be told to speak everything or
to selectively output silence, e.g. in narrative presentations
punctuation could turned off and
appropriate pauses used. However, when reading
computer languages, for
example, everything should be spoken and special
care given to the output of mixed expressions - alphanumeric
combinations - so that they can be understood.
- Voice recognition enhancements for command-and-control
designed to improve accuracy from the typical 85-95%
range to approach 100%. We are particularly
concerned with making voice recognition work for the legally or totally
blind and, therefore, accuracy is crucial.
- Control and recovery options, since even
the best computers and related software can behave abnormally. We are
implementing ways for the user to "ask" the
system to confirm its state.
Mechanisms will be in place to reset the speech
engines, return applications to a usable condition, reset the operating
system, and ultimately, if necessary, "jog"
the os to respond.
12:09 - Richard Seltzer
Ken -- That was a lot of info in a hurry...
Trying to sort through it -- it looks like you do both voice input and
voice
output. Does the content stay in the form
of voice, or is it mediated through plain text?
email followup from Kenneth Ingham
Generally we expect real-time voice conversion to electronic data or text.12:10 - Richard Seltzer
Of course, this is intended to be transparent for the user.
Ken -- Also, does the user have a choice as
to whether the voice input gets converted to text or is just processed
as
voice (for editing, etc., and for email)?
email followup from Kenneth Ingham
As mentioned above, the machine manipulates data - characters, binary,12:10 - Kenneth Ingham (Re: 12:04 - Richard Seltzer 'When you say 'word processing' do you mean writing by...')
etc. - and not streaming audio or analog. At present we do not provide the
choice. See below.
We are using concatenated asr engines, first to identify words and then to add context information.
12:11 - Richard Seltzer (Re: 12:10 - Kenneth Ingham 'We are using concatenated asr engines, first to identify words...')
"We are using concatenated asr engines, first
to identify words and then to add context information." That's a mouthful.
Can you explain that in more detail (with
very small words...)?
12:52 - BobZwick(2)
Richard - I think ASR means Automatic Speach Recognition. That would be the part that makes Voice to Text - John
12:53 - Kenneth Ingham
Richard, sorry. asr is automatic speech recognition or voice recognition.
12:11 - Kenneth Ingham (Re: 12:05 - Richard Seltzer 'Ken -- It sounds like you are coming up with...')
Yes, Richard, we are building a set independent
of any vendor. However, our approach will allow use of vendor
software.
12:12 - Richard Seltzer
Ken -- Does a typical user have to buy the
full suite of products (and what is available today)? In other words, do
you
need to have the word processor to use the
email, etc.
email followup from Kenneth Ingham
We plan to sell the fully integrated system, wherin the user loads a CDROM12:18 - Richard Seltzer
and installs the adept1000 and all of its component parts. We do this to
insure successful installation and to minimize integration issues. We may
unbundle some software later depending on market requirements
Ken -- I'm still lost. Let's back track a bit.
What products are available for shipping today and how do they differ from
competing products?
12:18 - Kenneth Ingham (Re: 12:16 - Richard Seltzer 'Welcome. Do you use any voice applications today? Like Dragon...')
We designed and implemented the word processing,
note taking, and other related apps and have been using these with
old-style voice output running under Linux.
We are implementing AT&T Natural Voices and preliminarily this sounds
wonderful.
12:21 - Richard Seltzer
Ken, let's look at those apps one by one. For
instance, the Word Processing. How does it differ from traditional, visual
word processing? Is it voice recognition software
that captures spoken words and saves them as text (like Dragon)? If
so, how does it differ from Dragon?
12:22 - Richard Seltzer
Ken -- and what do you mean by "note taking"?
How does that differ from voice-generated word processing? Just less
formatting? Is it used for adding notes to
something you are reading? Or is it meant as a dictation-style application?
12:23 - Richard Seltzer
Ken -- also, what are the names of these products?
And what's the price range (for an individual buying retail)? And
how do you sell them? Through your Web site?
Through distributors? And are they downloadable software?
12:23 - Kenneth Ingham
Our a.edit is a highly interactive program,
which includes elements of database support, email, and web access. The
voice input and output are intended to be
tightly coupled. I don't know if Dragon is used in such an interactive
way.
Ps - we are not getting our messages ehoed
back.
12:25 - Kenneth Ingham (Re: 12:22 - Richard Seltzer 'Ken -- and what do you mean by 'note taking'?...')
As mentioned in my last note, a.edit contains
elements of a database which allows the user to input notes and to have
these mapped into existing or new entries.
Thus the note taker includes new information with other older information
about the same topic and dates it.
12:26 - Bob Fleischer
an associative memory?
email followup from Kenneth Ingham
The note taker function allows the user to specify verbally the12:26 - Richard Seltzer
destination of information and the software accomodates this with some
intelligence. We will announce more on this at a later time.
Ken -- when I think of Dragon, I think just
of voice input/voice recognition. You seem to do both input and output.
I'm
still confused as to how you tie the voice
input and output together. Can someone work in a mode where everything
is
saved as voice until the editing etc. is done
and then save as text (presumably to save disk space)?
email followup from Kenneth Ingham
As stated above, voice input is immediately converted. However, you are12:27 - Richard Seltzer
making a good suggestion, since Dragon and other recognizers may work best
in a batch mode working with specialized vocabularies, etc. So we may
provide this option in the future.
Ken -- the notetaking sounds interesting, and
also sounds like something that could be generally useful (not just for
the
blind). Can you tell us more about how it
works? Perhaps lead us through a typical example/scenario?
12:28 - Kenneth Ingham
The overall system, including ap[plications,
speech engines, and Linux, is called the adept1000. The applications suite
is
a.edit, a.email, a.web, etc. Again, all other
Linux applications, including programmers tools and languages, are fully
available.
12:29 - Richard Seltzer
Ken -- are these products downloadable? and what's the retail price (ballpark)?
12:30 - Richard Seltzer
Ken -- Do you also sell PCs preloaded with
Linux and your suite of software? Otherwise, you are likely to have a very
limited market (at least for a while), since
not many PCs ship with Linux, and not many people (much less the blind)
know how to install Linux themselves.
12:31 - Kenneth Ingham
Richard, as far as our pricing is concerned,
we are aiming at having the entire adept1000, less hardware, to be on the
order of $500 retail. When it is fully beta
tested, we will work through distributors and organizations for the blind
for its
deployment.
12:31 - Richard Seltzer
Ken -- And is any special hardware required?
Special sound card or special microphone etc.?
12:34 - Kenneth Ingham
No special hardware is required, although a
decent combo headphones and microphone should be used. Our url is
www.amazability.com
12:36 - Kenneth Ingham
Richard, I think I covered most of your question
concerning availability except for a release date. We are currrently
testing all of the voice output - alpha -
with voice input to follow. Realistically, we are looking at early fall
as the soonest
release date.
12:36 - Richard Seltzer (Re: 12:34 - Kenneth Ingham 'No special hardware is required, although a decent combo headphones...')
Dragon includes a fancy microphone with every
package of their voice recognition software. (I guess that's an important
element in customer satisfaction -- when there
are problems it's often because of the microphone). Is there a reason why
you don't feel compelled to do something similar?
email followup from Kenneth Ingham
As yet we do not see the need for a special microphone, i.e. any of the
standard low-cost Andrea, etc. should work fine. However, if it is easier
for our customers we may include a headset.
12:10 - Richard Seltzer
Ken -- also, do you have any blind programmers
working for you? and if so, what kinds of insights have they added to
your product plans?
email followup from Kenneth Ingham
Richard, I am totally blind myself and we use input from lots of visually
impaired folks. One of our company's advisors is Brian Charlson of the
Carroll Center for the Blind. He is described on our website.
Hello all -- interested in how this ties in with Section 508
12:18 - peabo
is section 508 the Federal law about Web site
accessibility?
12:19 - PeteVH
Yes it is -- started as requirement for Fed
sites, then they told the states if they want fed money, do it -- and they
passed
it on to their vendors and schools etc., etc.
etc....
12:13 - BobZwick
Ken - are your products being developed with Section 508 in mind ?
email followup from Kenneth Ingham
Yes, although we are making accessible anything that is available on a
target site, i.e. the user can learn what's there for sighted folks or can
ignore it using filters.
Voice input and control is considered by many
"wireless and mobile" people (including myself) to be the "killer app",
or
at least the key requirement for the killer
app, since anything small generally is very poor at text input, not to
mention that
even things that are reasonable to do on a
handheld, such as pointing to select, become really difficult if even one
of your
hands is not available.
12:38 - Richard Seltzer (Re: 12:36 - Kenneth Ingham 'Richard, I think I covered most of your question concerning...')
Ken, following up on Bob Fleischer's question
about mobile applications -- are there any mobile devices today that
could handle any of your applications? If
not, what is needed? More memory? Disk? Sound card? How far off is that?
12:39 - Bob Fleischer
OK, according to your website, "portables and wearables" are a target
12:40 - BobZwick(2)
If a PC can be controlled completely without use of a keyboard - we are approaching StarTrek :))
12:43 - Richard Seltzer
Ken -- Thinking of laptops, I could imagine
building a laptop specifically for your voice suite that came without a
keyboard, and perhaps without a screen (and
with Linux pre-installed). That could be a very portable laptop...
12:44 - Bob Fleischer (Re: 12:43 - Richard Seltzer 'Ken -- Thinking of laptops, I could imagine building a...')
one would think that a handheld without a screen could be small indeed
12:46 - peabo (Re: 12:44 - Bob Fleischer 'one would think that a handheld without a screen could...')
maybe even a beltPaq :-)
12:46 - Richard Seltzer
Ken -- Taking to heart your point that voice
applications could/should be developed in native mode rather than just
as
adaptations of visual applications, it would
make sense to build a PC (palm, wireless, laptop or whatever) with
voice/speech as the native input-output mode.
That could make for a very interesting sytsem -- for everyone, not just
hte
blind.
12:46 - Kenneth Ingham
We cannot underestimate the operating problems
that the blind will experience with any computer. With the best of fully
integrated software, we know that the recovery
strategies described in an earlier window, will be required. It is too
easy
to "get lost", even when things work right.
This puts a high burden on the asr accuracy and on effective recovery.
If we
solve these issues - yes Bob - we will have
Startrek.
12:49 - Richard Seltzer (Re: 12:48 - Kenneth Ingham 'Richard, by footprint I mean storage requirements. A handheld...')
This really sounds like a hardware opportunity -- building the ideal PC for a voice style working environment.
12:49 - Kenneth Ingham
Richard, such a laptop would be wonderful!
Also, cheaper! However, we still will need reset buttons.
12:49 - John Hbbs
My chief interest to join you was to see how
pracical --is this the right place, Ken Ingham ? - to "get" instant voice
transcribed into text...with many different
voices. We can do that now with a guy who is a court reporter..he transcribed
my voice from Melbourne laast month and we
uploaded instantly to a chat room. I would like to have this done by
software? Is that something you, Ken Ingham
do?
email followup from Kenneth Ingham
Voice recognition for large vocabularies and in a noisy room is still12:50 - Richard Seltzer
problematical. The major problem is not the training, as this can be done
very quickly. Rather, it is the separation of voices and the suppression
of any other sounds than the target voice, etc. Therefore, the real cost
to doing this may be the collection of microphones and noise suppression
technology needed.There are voice recognition engines which claim speaker independence,
although the vocabularies are not large. It would be interesting to put
together a real test with the foregoing ancillary gear.
Ken and John -- I'd think that there would
be a very interesting worldwide market for very low cost PCs, designed
without keyboard and without monitor screen,
with Linux as an operating system and voice for both input and output.
12:51 - John Hbbs
I would not think there is that big a market for this kind of laptop or compputer..
12:51 - Kenneth Ingham
Richard - Agreed regardless small compact machines.
Ken -- I realize that I'm bombarding you with
questions and there's hardly any time for you to reply. If you have thoughts
you haven't had time to enter, please send
me email and I'll add those comments to the transcript. Either that, or
you
could come back to this chat room any time
over the next couple of days and add your comments here, for automatic
inclusion in the transcript.
12:53 - Richard Seltzer
All -- We're just about at the end of the hour.
If you have final questions, please fire away quickly.
12:55 - John Hbbs
hibbs@bfranklin.edu
12:55 - Richard Seltzer
Please join us again next Thursday (same time)
for a chat with Ray Vasser about ROI for training.
12:56 - Richard Seltzer
As soon as time permits, I'll do an edited
version of this transcript and post it at my site. Check
http://www.samizdat.com/chat.html In the meantime
you can see the unedit transcript which has been automatically saved
here.
12:56 - BobZwick(2)
http://www.cottagemicro.com
12:56 - Richard Seltzer
Ken -- Thanks very much, and good luck with
your products. Please keep me updated on your progress.
12:56 - John Hbbs
thanks Ken. I promise to look at your site.
12:57 - Richard Seltzer
Thanks to all.
12:57 - Bob Fleischer To reply to a specific entry, click the entry's time stamp.
robert.fleischer@compaq.com
12:57 - Kenneth Ingham
Kenneth Ingham
amazability@rcn.com
www.amazability.com
Previous transcripts and schedule of upcoming chats -- www.samizdat.com/chat.html
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