where "word of keystroke" begins

May 2, 2002 --  Developing applications for speech, with Ken Ingham of Amazability

Kenneth R. Ingham, President of Amazability, Inc. talks about applications developed for speech as opposed to voice adaptations of graphical presentations. The discussion centers on an alternative technology for assistive systems (for the blind/visually impaired), wherein   the where speech is the initial design goal, versus the typical approach, where the starting point is the visual presentation. Here "speech"  includes both voice recognition and text-to-speech.

This is the edited transcript of a live chat session that took place Thursday, May 2, 2002. These sessions are normally scheduled for 12 noon-1 PM US Eastern Time on Thursdays (when we are on standard time that is GMT -5; on daylight savings time, that is GMT -4).

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Threads (reconstructed after the fact):

Today's Participants


 11:57 - Richard Seltzer

     All -- we've reached the magic hour of noon. Please introduce yourselves and let us know your interests. Our guest
     today is Ken Ingham from Amazability.

 11:57 - BobZwick

     Hello everyone. Bob Zwick here - software developer/consultant in the Dallas Texas area. I'm involved in e-Publishing
     and e-Education. I'm am constantly looking for ways to include disadvantaged people in both of these projects.

 11:58 - Bob Fleischer

     Bob Fleischer, Compaq Professional Services (but not for long)

12:00 - Richard Seltzer

     Peabo -- can you please introduce yourself? (Bob Zwick and Bob Fleischer are both frequent chatters here... I guess
     they should be earning frequent chatter miles...)

 12:01 - peabo

     I'm actually just lurking. I'm a programmer who is interested in adaptive technology.

 12:14 - Richard Seltzer

     Welcome RotoJr. Please introduce yourself and let us know your interests. Then please dive in.

  12:15 - RotoJr     (Re: 12:14 - Richard Seltzer 'Welcome RotoJr. Please introduce yourself and let us know your...')

     Hi, I'm Bob Fleischer's daughter - just interested in the topic.

12:17 - Richard Seltzer

     Welcome, PeteVH. Please introduce yourself, let us know your interests, and dive in.

 12:24 - Richard Seltzer

     Welcome, Lisa Neal. Please introduce yourself and let us know your interests and dive in.

 12:45 - Richard Seltzer

     Welcome, John Hibbs, glad you could make it. We started (as usual) at noon Eastern Time). Please introduce yourself
     and ask lots of good questions quickly :-)

12:47 - Richard Seltzer

     All -- fyi -- John Hibbs runs Global Learn Day -- a major worldwide 24-hour event. The process of organizing it and
     getting volunteers from everywhere puts him in touch with the top distance ed people everywhere.

Amazability's focus

 11:58 - Richard Seltzer

     Ken -- to start things off, can you please tell us something about your self and your company and what you are doing
     that is unique.

 12:00 - Kenneth Ingham

     Hi Everyone. I am a graduate of BU and Brandeis with a Ph.D. in physics. However, I have worked all my professional
     career building companies specializing in data communications.

  12:01 - Kenneth Ingham

     Amazability, Inc. is developing the adept1000, which is to provide full speech interaction for
     applications running in a Linux environment. The speech - both text-to-speech output and automatic speech recognition -
     are being configured as alternate access methods to the standard keyboard and monitor. Our approach is to replace
     these visually oriented access devices by a full speech interface wherein all software, including the Linux operating
     system, are fully available in "native mode".

12:02 - Kenneth Ingham

     We are adding to the huge amount of software already available with Linux, applications designed for speech operation.
     In effect, we are not adapting the visual software with screen reader technology, but are providing a simpler and easier to
     use alternative.

     Our applications include word processing, note taking and retrieval, email, and web browsing.

     We are also implementing modules to interpret and make available the information in existing applications so that the
     visually imaired user can move his or her work to and from existing commercial software.

 12:01 - Richard Seltzer

     Ken -- You mentioned that you are building interactive voice applications and that you aren't just adapting existing
     graphic applications for voice. Can you please explain, and tell us something about your current and future products.
     Can you explain what you mean by "native mode" in this context, and what difference that makes?

email followup from Kenneth Ingham

We are replacing the monitor/keyboard with a completely equivalent voice
"console".  Thus,  anything that would be ddisplayed on the monitor is sent
to our voice output, at which point we  filter it.  Therefore, since
everything Linux would like displayed is sent to us, I call this  "native
mode".  I am sure there is a better name for it.
12:13 - Richard Seltzer

     Ken -- I'm still trying to figure out what is gained by building "native voice" applications, rather than adapting existing
     applications. For instance, with the word processing, do you forget formatting (bold, italic, font, type size, etc.) and focus
     on the words because the user won't be able to see the formatting?

email followup from Kenneth Ingham

We do not forget the inkprint forms/styles and have mechanisms to permit
the user to learn  about them or to specify these during composition or
post-composition.  However, the key is the  efficient imparting of
information, which in voice is best done by providing the best possible
voicing - like that in a normal conversation.  Such voicing should be done
without the need to  reference a two-dimensional format or styles.
 12:03 - Richard Seltzer

     Ken -- Are your voice applications only for the use of the blind? Or (like Dragon's voice recognition), might they be
     useful for everyone (just a different mode of working)?

12:05 - Kenneth Ingham

     We are specifically designing for the visually impaired, knowing full well that what we are building will apply to the rest of
     society - anyone "hands-busy" or using telephones, etc.

 12:14 - Kenneth Ingham     (Re: 12:06 - Richard Seltzer 'Ken -- I'd really like to know what makes your...')

     We are looking for the right balances between simplicity and complexity and between lots of manipulation and
     productivity. Moreover, good applications that achieve these balances must provide appropriate verbal cues and assist in
     audio presentation. By controlling the applications we are able to output additional formatting information to our a.format

  12:15 - Bob Fleischer     (Re: 12:13 - Richard Seltzer 'Ken -- I'm still trying to figure out what is...')

     I can certainly see that radical redesign of an application might be required in the case of a radically different input mode

Choice of Linux

12:04 - BobZwick

     Ken - what is your reasoning behind moving to Linux - are you a MS revolutionist ? :-)

12:08 - Kenneth Ingham     (Re: 12:04 - BobZwick 'Ken - what is your reasoning behind moiving to Linux...')

     We are certainly not opposed to Microsoft or any other vendor, e.g. Apple. However, we have full access to Linux
     code, both os and applications, and given our alternative access mode approach, we believe we will get the most
     mileage from doing it first.

12:04 - Bob Fleischer

     sounds like it would be fun on a handheld -- I'd suggest the iPAQ :-)

12:17 - Bob Fleischer

     Seriously, I was wondering to what extent you had tried your technologies and applications in the handheld form factor
     -- the iPAQ makes a very good Linux platform (though we tend not to talk about it)

email followup from Kenneth Ingham

We are certainly targeting machines of the iPAQ size, although doing the
implementation is a  later step.  As I stated elsewhere, the adept1000 can
serve as its own developemnt platform and  larger machines are easier to
work right now.  We are also interested in making accessible as  much of the
public domain software as possible and, again, a fully loaded platform enables this.
  12:28 - BobZwick(2)

     Ken - are you modifying the Linux Operating System to operate with your software ?

email followup from Kenneth Ingham

No, we are not modifying Linux.  Rather, we are creating voice drivers
that are compatible with  the Linux structure ala Redhat, etc.
12:32 - Richard Seltzer

     Ken -- Sounds like you are in beta-testing mode now and have not yet begun to ship retail to consumers. Is that
     accurate? If so, when do you expect to do your official product launch? And will that launch include selling your suite of
     software pre-installed on a Linux PC?

 12:33 - Kenneth Ingham

     Your comment concerning Linux is well taken. However, integration for adaptive technology with any operating system
     is difficult for the visually impaired. We will have to help, although we would prefer to induce a hardware manufacturer to
     offer the full hardware/software combination.

 12:33 - BobZwick(2)

     Richard - Fryes Electronics just started selling Linux systems complete Internet ready for under $300... I think the Linux
     OS may catch on if that continues.

 12:34 - Richard Seltzer     (Re: 12:33 - Kenneth Ingham 'Your comment concerning Linux is well taken. However, integration...')

     Are there any major PC manufacturers shipping their PCs with Linux today? (Pardon my ignorance).

 12:35 - Richard Seltzer     (Re: 12:33 - BobZwick(2) 'Richard - Fryes Electronics just started selling Linux systems complete...')

     Bob Zwick -- thanks. I hadn't heard of Fryes Electronics. Any big names daring to do it (and risking the wrath of
     Microsoft)? It's amazing how much of the cost of a PC today is for Microsoft software .

 12:35 - BobZwick(2)

     Richard - IBM is selling Linux servers now.

12:40 - Bob Fleischer     (Re: 12:35 - BobZwick(2) 'Richard - IBM is selling Linux servers now....')

      Compaq sells more linux servers than anybody (so I'm told).

 12:40 - Kenneth Ingham

     Your higher end handhelds can support our applications. However, we are initially targeting portables/laptops and above
     in order to accomodate the large footprint needed for good speech. We will look to shrink the adept1000 for later
     release on smaller machines.

     We believe that the Linux environment lends itself to co-support of other technologies, e.g. electronic books and ocr,
     and we would look to integrating these later.

 12:42 - Richard Seltzer

     Ken -- what do you mean by footprint? do you mean disk size etc.? (certainly not physical size, or am I missing
     something? I thought one of the major advantages of voice was that you could operate without a keyboard).

12:48 - Kenneth Ingham

     Richard, by footprint I mean storage requirements. A handheld must fit the os, speech engines, applications, user data,
     and lots of speech tables, etc.

 12:40 - Richard Seltzer

     Ken -- I've often been tempted by Linux. I even bought the RedHat (did I remember the name right?) version a couple
     years ago. But I was totally stymied when it came to installation. Purportedly you could run both Linux and Windows on
     the same PC. But it looked like you had to reformat your disk, erasing everything you had before. That wasn't something
     I was willing to do with an existing, useful PC. Hence I figured that I'd only make the change when buying a new PC. But
     then I was stymied by the universality of Microsoft applications. People I dealt with insisted that I send them documents
     in Word, etc. Do you have any way to get around these frustrating barriers?

 12:43 - Bob Fleischer     (Re: 12:40 - Richard Seltzer 'Ken -- I've often been tempted by Linux. I even...') -- just announced their "product" release of a free, open source office suite

 12:43 - Kenneth Ingham

     We routinely install Linux and Windows on the same machine. In addition current versions of Linux from Redhat,
     Mandrake, etc. are pretty clean with regard to their installation. Basically only a couple of questions, e.g. user name and
     network address, are required.

Design plans for the suite of products

 12:04 - Richard Seltzer     (Re: 12:02 - Kenneth Ingham 'We are adding to the huge amount of software already...')

     When you say "word processing" do you mean writing by speaking (voice recognition)? If so can you compare you
     approach to that of Dragon?

 12:05 - Richard Seltzer

     Ken -- It sounds like you are coming up with an entire suite of office applications that do not depend on Microsoft. Is
     that the case?

 12:06 - Richard Seltzer

     Ken -- I'd really like to know what makes your applications unique. By not adapting existing visual applications what do
     you gain? (To offset what is lost because people are so used to Microsoft Office etc.)

email followup from Kenneth Ingham

In addition to the complexity trade-offs, we are particularly keen on
improving productivity.   Screen readers require one to "know" the screen
and maneuver around it.  We eliminate this  through direct commands
indicating what you, the user, wants.  Of course, hands-busy/eyes-busy  and
telephone users don't even have screens to explore.
 12:06 - Kenneth Ingham

     Areas receiving particular attention include:

     - Implementation of applications to enhance speech use, e.g. simple verbal or keyboard command set, audio responses
     designed for speed and appropriateness. The goal is to maximize productivity.

     - The presentation of structured information with cues to improve readibility. Our speech formatting interface, a.format, is
     being implemented to support audio output management, as well as the dynamic replacement of simple narrative
     verbalization by special "filters" that allow for the presentation of technical information, tables, spreadsheets, etc.
     A.format can be told to speak everything or to selectively output silence, e.g. in narrative presentations
     punctuation could turned off and
     appropriate pauses used. However, when reading computer languages, for
     example, everything should be spoken and special care given to the output of mixed expressions - alphanumeric
     combinations - so that they can be understood.

     - Voice recognition enhancements for command-and-control designed to improve accuracy from the typical 85-95%
     range to approach 100%. We are particularly concerned with making voice recognition work for the legally or totally
     blind and, therefore, accuracy is crucial.

     - Control and recovery options, since even the best computers and related software can behave abnormally. We are
     implementing ways for the user to "ask" the system to confirm its state.

     Mechanisms will be in place to reset the speech engines, return applications to a usable condition, reset the operating
     system, and ultimately, if necessary, "jog" the os to respond.

 12:09 - Richard Seltzer

     Ken -- That was a lot of info in a hurry... Trying to sort through it -- it looks like you do both voice input and voice
     output. Does the content stay in the form of voice, or is it mediated through plain text?

email followup from Kenneth Ingham

Generally we expect real-time voice conversion to electronic data or text.
Of course, this is  intended to be transparent for the user.
 12:10 - Richard Seltzer

     Ken -- Also, does the user have a choice as to whether the voice input gets converted to text or is just processed as
     voice (for editing, etc., and for email)?

email followup from Kenneth Ingham

As mentioned above, the machine manipulates data - characters, binary,
etc. - and not streaming  audio or analog.  At present we do not provide the
choice.  See below.
 12:10 - Kenneth Ingham     (Re: 12:04 - Richard Seltzer 'When you say 'word processing' do you mean writing by...')

     We are using concatenated asr engines, first to identify words and then to add context information.

12:11 - Richard Seltzer     (Re: 12:10 - Kenneth Ingham 'We are using concatenated asr engines, first to identify words...')

     "We are using concatenated asr engines, first to identify words and then to add context information." That's a mouthful.
     Can you explain that in more detail (with very small words...)?

 12:52 - BobZwick(2)

     Richard - I think ASR means Automatic Speach Recognition. That would be the part that makes Voice to Text - John

 12:53 - Kenneth Ingham

     Richard, sorry. asr is automatic speech recognition or voice recognition.

12:11 - Kenneth Ingham     (Re: 12:05 - Richard Seltzer 'Ken -- It sounds like you are coming up with...')

     Yes, Richard, we are building a set independent of any vendor. However, our approach will allow use of vendor

12:12 - Richard Seltzer

     Ken -- Does a typical user have to buy the full suite of products (and what is available today)? In other words, do you
     need to have the word processor to use the email, etc.

email followup from Kenneth Ingham

We plan to sell the fully integrated system, wherin the user loads a CDROM
and installs the  adept1000 and all of its component parts.  We do this to
insure successful installation and to  minimize integration issues.  We may
unbundle some software later depending on market  requirements
 12:18 - Richard Seltzer

     Ken -- I'm still lost. Let's back track a bit. What products are available for shipping today and how do they differ from
     competing products?

 12:18 - Kenneth Ingham     (Re: 12:16 - Richard Seltzer 'Welcome. Do you use any voice applications today? Like Dragon...')

     We designed and implemented the word processing, note taking, and other related apps and have been using these with
     old-style voice output running under Linux. We are implementing AT&T Natural Voices and preliminarily this sounds

 12:21 - Richard Seltzer

     Ken, let's look at those apps one by one. For instance, the Word Processing. How does it differ from traditional, visual
     word processing? Is it voice recognition software that captures spoken words and saves them as text (like Dragon)? If
     so, how does it differ from Dragon?

 12:22 - Richard Seltzer

     Ken -- and what do you mean by "note taking"? How does that differ from voice-generated word processing? Just less
     formatting? Is it used for adding notes to something you are reading? Or is it meant as a dictation-style application?

 12:23 - Richard Seltzer

     Ken -- also, what are the names of these products? And what's the price range (for an individual buying retail)? And
     how do you sell them? Through your Web site? Through distributors? And are they downloadable software?

 12:23 - Kenneth Ingham

     Our a.edit is a highly interactive program, which includes elements of database support, email, and web access. The
     voice input and output are intended to be tightly coupled. I don't know if Dragon is used in such an interactive way.
     Ps - we are not getting our messages ehoed back.

 12:25 - Kenneth Ingham     (Re: 12:22 - Richard Seltzer 'Ken -- and what do you mean by 'note taking'?...')

     As mentioned in my last note, a.edit contains elements of a database which allows the user to input notes and to have
     these mapped into existing or new entries. Thus the note taker includes new information with other older information
     about the same topic and dates it.

 12:26 - Bob Fleischer

     an associative memory?

email followup from Kenneth Ingham

The note taker function allows the user to specify verbally the
destination of information and  the software accomodates this with some
intelligence.  We will announce more on this at a later  time.
 12:26 - Richard Seltzer

     Ken -- when I think of Dragon, I think just of voice input/voice recognition. You seem to do both input and output. I'm
     still confused as to how you tie the voice input and output together. Can someone work in a mode where everything is
     saved as voice until the editing etc. is done and then save as text (presumably to save disk space)?

email followup from Kenneth Ingham

As stated above, voice input is immediately converted.  However, you are
making a good  suggestion, since Dragon and other recognizers may work best
in a batch mode working with  specialized vocabularies, etc.  So we may
provide this option in the future.
 12:27 - Richard Seltzer

     Ken -- the notetaking sounds interesting, and also sounds like something that could be generally useful (not just for the
     blind). Can you tell us more about how it works? Perhaps lead us through a typical example/scenario?

 12:28 - Kenneth Ingham

     The overall system, including ap[plications, speech engines, and Linux, is called the adept1000. The applications suite is
     a.edit,, a.web, etc. Again, all other Linux applications, including programmers tools and languages, are fully

 12:29 - Richard Seltzer

     Ken -- are these products downloadable? and what's the retail price (ballpark)?

 12:30 - Richard Seltzer

     Ken -- Do you also sell PCs preloaded with Linux and your suite of software? Otherwise, you are likely to have a very
     limited market (at least for a while), since not many PCs ship with Linux, and not many people (much less the blind)
     know how to install Linux themselves.

 12:31 - Kenneth Ingham

     Richard, as far as our pricing is concerned, we are aiming at having the entire adept1000, less hardware, to be on the
     order of $500 retail. When it is fully beta tested, we will work through distributors and organizations for the blind for its

 12:31 - Richard Seltzer

     Ken -- And is any special hardware required? Special sound card or special microphone etc.?

 12:34 - Kenneth Ingham

     No special hardware is required, although a decent combo headphones and microphone should be used. Our url is

  12:36 - Kenneth Ingham

     Richard, I think I covered most of your question concerning availability except for a release date. We are currrently
     testing all of the voice output - alpha - with voice input to follow. Realistically, we are looking at early fall as the soonest
     release date.

12:36 - Richard Seltzer     (Re: 12:34 - Kenneth Ingham 'No special hardware is required, although a decent combo headphones...')

     Dragon includes a fancy microphone with every package of their voice recognition software. (I guess that's an important
     element in customer satisfaction -- when there are problems it's often because of the microphone). Is there a reason why
     you don't feel compelled to do something similar?

email followup from Kenneth Ingham

As yet we do not see the need for a special microphone, i.e. any of the
standard low-cost  Andrea, etc. should work fine.  However, if it is easier
for our customers we may include a  headset.

Blind programmers

12:10 - Richard Seltzer

     Ken -- also, do you have any blind programmers working for you? and if so, what kinds of insights have they added to
     your product plans?

email followup from Kenneth Ingham

Richard, I am totally blind myself and we use input from lots of visually
impaired folks.  One  of our company's advisors is Brian Charlson of the
Carroll Center for the Blind.  He is described  on our website.

Section 508 -- federally-mandated accessibility for the blind

 12:18 - PeteVH

     Hello all -- interested in how this ties in with Section 508

 12:18 - peabo

     is section 508 the Federal law about Web site accessibility?

 12:19 - PeteVH

     Yes it is -- started as requirement for Fed sites, then they told the states if they want fed money, do it -- and they passed
     it on to their vendors and schools etc., etc. etc....

12:13 - BobZwick

     Ken - are your products being developed with Section 508 in mind ?

email followup from Kenneth Ingham

Yes, although we are making accessible anything that is available on a
target site, i.e. the  user can learn what's there for sighted folks or can
ignore it using filters.

Blue sky -- the ideal hardware platform, with no keyboard and no screen

12:36 - Bob Fleischer

     Voice input and control is considered by many "wireless and mobile" people (including myself) to be the "killer app", or
     at least the key requirement for the killer app, since anything small generally is very poor at text input, not to mention that
     even things that are reasonable to do on a handheld, such as pointing to select, become really difficult if even one of your
     hands is not available.

12:38 - Richard Seltzer     (Re: 12:36 - Kenneth Ingham 'Richard, I think I covered most of your question concerning...')

     Ken, following up on Bob Fleischer's question about mobile applications -- are there any mobile devices today that
     could handle any of your applications? If not, what is needed? More memory? Disk? Sound card? How far off is that?

 12:39 - Bob Fleischer

     OK, according to your website, "portables and wearables" are a target

 12:40 - BobZwick(2)

     If a PC can be controlled completely without use of a keyboard - we are approaching StarTrek :))

12:43 - Richard Seltzer

     Ken -- Thinking of laptops, I could imagine building a laptop specifically for your voice suite that came without a
     keyboard, and perhaps without a screen (and with Linux pre-installed). That could be a very portable laptop...

 12:44 - Bob Fleischer     (Re: 12:43 - Richard Seltzer 'Ken -- Thinking of laptops, I could imagine building a...')

      one would think that a handheld without a screen could be small indeed

 12:46 - peabo     (Re: 12:44 - Bob Fleischer 'one would think that a handheld without a screen could...')

     maybe even a beltPaq :-)

  12:46 - Richard Seltzer

     Ken -- Taking to heart your point that voice applications could/should be developed in native mode rather than just as
     adaptations of visual applications, it would make sense to build a PC (palm, wireless, laptop or whatever) with
     voice/speech as the native input-output mode. That could make for a very interesting sytsem -- for everyone, not just hte

 12:46 - Kenneth Ingham

     We cannot underestimate the operating problems that the blind will experience with any computer. With the best of fully
     integrated software, we know that the recovery strategies described in an earlier window, will be required. It is too easy
     to "get lost", even when things work right. This puts a high burden on the asr accuracy and on effective recovery. If we
     solve these issues - yes Bob - we will have Startrek.

12:49 - Richard Seltzer     (Re: 12:48 - Kenneth Ingham 'Richard, by footprint I mean storage requirements. A handheld...')

     This really sounds like a hardware opportunity -- building the ideal PC for a voice style working environment.

 12:49 - Kenneth Ingham

     Richard, such a laptop would be wonderful! Also, cheaper! However, we still will need reset buttons.

 12:49 - John Hbbs

     My chief interest to join you was to see how pracical --is this the right place, Ken Ingham ? - to "get" instant voice
     transcribed into text...with many different voices. We can do that now with a guy who is a court reporter..he transcribed
     my voice from Melbourne laast month and we uploaded instantly to a chat room. I would like to have this done by
     software? Is that something you, Ken Ingham do?

email followup from Kenneth Ingham

Voice recognition for large vocabularies and in a noisy room is still
problematical.  The major  problem is not the training, as this can be done
very quickly.  Rather, it is the separation of  voices and the suppression
of any other sounds than the target voice, etc.  Therefore, the real  cost
to doing this may be the collection of microphones and noise suppression
technology needed.

There are voice recognition engines which claim speaker independence,
although the vocabularies  are not large.  It would be interesting to put
together a real test with the foregoing ancillary  gear.

12:50 - Richard Seltzer

     Ken and John -- I'd think that there would be a very interesting worldwide market for very low cost PCs, designed
     without keyboard and without monitor screen, with Linux as an operating system and voice for both input and output.

  12:51 - John Hbbs

     I would not think there is that big a market for this kind of laptop or compputer..

 12:51 - Kenneth Ingham

     Richard - Agreed regardless small compact machines.


12:52 - Richard Seltzer

     Ken -- I realize that I'm bombarding you with questions and there's hardly any time for you to reply. If you have thoughts
     you haven't had time to enter, please send me email and I'll add those comments to the transcript. Either that, or you
     could come back to this chat room any time over the next couple of days and add your comments here, for automatic
     inclusion in the transcript.

 12:53 - Richard Seltzer

     All -- We're just about at the end of the hour. If you have final questions, please fire away quickly.

  12:55 - John Hbbs

 12:55 - Richard Seltzer

     Please join us again next Thursday (same time) for a chat with Ray Vasser about ROI for training.

  12:56 - Richard Seltzer

     As soon as time permits, I'll do an edited version of this transcript and post it at my site. Check In the meantime you can see the unedit transcript which has been automatically saved

 12:56 - BobZwick(2)

 12:56 - Richard Seltzer

     Ken -- Thanks very much, and good luck with your products. Please keep me updated on your progress.

 12:56 - John Hbbs

     thanks Ken. I promise to look at your site.

 12:57 - Richard Seltzer

     Thanks to all.

 12:57 - Bob Fleischer     To reply to a specific entry, click the entry's time stamp.

 12:57 - Kenneth Ingham

     Kenneth Ingham

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