To connect to the chat room, go to www.samizdat.com/chat-intro.html
Since the chat itself happens at a rapid pace, it's often difficult to note interesting facts and URLs as they appear live. Here's a place to take a more leisurely look. I've rearranged some of the pieces to try to capture the various threads of discussion (which sometimes get lost in the rush of live chat).
Please send email with your follow-on questions and comments, and suggestions for topics we should focus on in future sessions. So long as the volume of email responses is manageable, I'll post the most pertinent ones here for all to see.
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This is one of the longest-running chat programs on the Web. (Please let us know if you know of ones that are older.) We've been doing this since June 1996.
For transcripts of previous sessions and a list of future topics, www.samizdat.com/chat.html.
For an article on how to make "business chat" work (based on this experience), www.samizdat.com/events.html.
For articles on topics related to this one, check our newsletter, Internet-on-a-Disk http://www.samizdat.com/ioad.html
Richard Seltzer: Hello, John. You are here bright and early.
HibbsMacNetscape: I think from time to time we should post the telephone room number, but suggest you and I go there before the 9 a.m kick off dialing now
Richard Seltzer: Welcome, Bob. The POTS number [POTS = plain old telephone system] is 305-503-6666 X802. Dial the main number, then enter the extension when requested.
HibbsMacNetscape: i am in the telephone room now, got there instantly 305 503 6666 ext 802
Bob Zwick: John - do you have the telephone room hooked to a web voice chat ?
Richard Seltzer: Not today. But probably next time. John is working on that.
HibbsMacNetscape: you guys may want to join us in the phone room? Richard and I are there now
Dan (phoneless) Kalikow: Hi all -- since I'm in MA and working on my own dime, I thought I'd forego the phone part... sorry!!
Richard Seltzer: Welcome, Dan. Sorry I haven't gotten back to you yet with reponses to your helpful emails.
Dan (phoneless) Kalikow: Not to worry -- RL is pressing sometimes!! :-)
HibbspcExplorer: Dan, if you have some pointed questions, I will do my best to answer
Dan (phoneless) Kalikow: Well hmm, I guess I have to agree that text & voice & graphics would be cool to have simultaneously. What tools do you use for all these, John?
Richard Seltzer: I think that one of the key questions is whether there is value in using a service/tool that combines all these capabilities. Or are you better off picking one approach and the best app for it, and focusing your efforts? I'm afraid that any all-in-1, do-it-all app is likely to have compromised on all the pieces...
Dan (phoneless) Kalikow: Re Richard all-in-one service tool -- Someone mentioned a pricey tool last wk, I saw/used it once, was impressed. Forgot its name...
HibbsMacNetscape: next time we will telephone
Bob Zwick: John - are you broadcasting the tel conversations with Real Audio ?
HibbsMacNetscape: bob why don't you come in the room
Bob Zwick: do you mean call the number ?
Dan (phoneless) Kalikow: I'm using a W2K laptop & MSIE5.* --OBTW,
what's the little periodic
"chirp" I hear?
Richard Seltzer: The noise alerts you that someone has posted something.
You can
turn it off by clicking on the
speaker below the input box.
HibbsMacNetscape: Bob, no, I am not webcasting from the audio room,
and do not have
the capacity as I sit here, at
this instant to do both. I actually
need some help as I can't handle
the phohone and the streaming and
the chat all alone
HibbsMacNetscape: Bob, no, I am not webcasting from the audio room,
and do not have
the capacity as I sit here, at
this instant to do both. I actually
need some help as I can't handle
the phohone and the streaming and
the chat all alone
Dan (phoneless) Kalikow: Yeh, re phone and typing and all, I was
real glad I brought a
speakerphone in so I could type;
but then it wasn't an 800# so I
wimped out. Tnx Richard for the
expln. I had kinda thought so...
HibbspcExplorer: richard and I just left the phone room, so if
anyone else wants to
try that capability, they should
let us know. I would suggest doing
so as i is easy and very cheap
and can be an excellent place for
conversations which are then streamed.
Next week I hope to do same,
but would like help from those
here to enable?
Richard Seltzer: My quick take -- that room seems like a great way to
hold
conference calls, without hassle.
And it could be very good to be
able to communicate by phone and
text chat simultaneously. But it
doesn't seem to make sense unless
there's more than two people
connected.
HibbspcExplorer: IMHO, the way the ordinary telephone works best is
to have a small panel of experts who dialogue over the phone. That audio
is bridged to at least one net streaming device - telephony and or real
audio,
and the audience listens, and
asks questions by text chat. from time to time one can then invite
those to join the room in
addition to the Panel
HibbspcExplorer: what we have found out is that too many tools reduce the learning
Richard Seltzer: I believe a lot depends on habit. If you have half
a dozen people
who are used to using both phone
and text chat, that could turn out
to be great. But the learning
curve could be a bit steep at first.
HibbspcExplorer: such as powerpoint, charts and etc. though putting
urls in the text
chat area for others to look at
is great. but audio and text chat
carry the main load
HibbspcExplorer: bob, I take it yu have no capabiliy to stream?
Richard Seltzer: John -- if we were
to try audio streaming the voice from a POTS
telephone room, could that streaming
be initiated by any of the
participants? Or only from the
telephone room? And how difficult
would that be to do?
Bob Zwick: I have the tools, but not the ISP service.
Richard Seltzer: Does HiSpeed provide that service?
Bob Zwick: Hi-Spped has dedicated servers ~ 200/mo that would
give that
capability, but I don't think
they can provide a Real Server IP
address to broadcast from. MyCast
would be a place to look for that
service.
Richard Seltzer: What does MyCast charge for that? And on
what basis? Do you need to
pay a monthly subscription fee?
Or can you sign up to do it for a
single event?
Bob Zwick: John could probably answer that question since GLD used it.
Richard Seltzer: John -- What does MyCast charge? And who is that structured?
Richard Seltzer: John -- What does MyCast charge? And how is that structured?
Dan (phoneless) Kalikow: Is there any audio I should be listening to
-- I've got a
RealPlayer client up... (I think
the answer's no to this Q)
HibbspcExplorer: Richard, I am afraid that people either have the capabiliy
to
muliti task or not. We found women
couuld do it easily. I have a
very hard time myself, thats one
reason I like the speaker phone
and will pay the 5 cents a minute
to hear easily, type and listen
and talk whenn and how I want.
Richard Seltzer: I can juggle 2 or 3 things. I'd like to test the limits...
Dan (phoneless) Kalikow: Richard I see the pic but I don't see
the 2 or 3 things you're
purportedly juggling. P'raps they
were out of frame :-)
Richard Seltzer: Yes, I'm juggling three very sharp sabers. Most of
the time they
are hovering just over my head...
HibbspcExplorer: Dan, I am not sure what you mean by "all the tools"?
Dan (phoneless) Kalikow: Like what sort of graphic display (I
gather just browser with
PPT?), what text-chat tool, what
audio tool(s)?
Richard Seltzer: A few years ago, we tested in one of our
chat sessions a very fancy
capability from placeware. I don't
know if they are still in
business. Slide show, audio, text,
etc. all going at once, with an
auditorium-style setup so you
could have a moderator filtering
questions for a speaker. Sounded
good, but in practice was very
awkward. It was designed for and
worked best for just very large
assemblies, where there was a
designated speaker -- not at all for
peer-to-peer discussions.
HibbspcExplorer: with respect to graphics use, we have found the very
best way to
view is to provide a web page
with a short description of each
page, then let the viewers click
to the page. What has not worked very well, and this is for conferences
as vs.
classes, are powerpoint slides
where the speaker "walks' the
audience through the slides. The
only way this has worked fairly
well is when the slides are pushed
at the viewers, automatically,
which mostly requires downloaded
software. All fine for classes and
lots of patience, very, very bad
for sessions like this. My cast is free, but is very touchy at best
Dan (phoneless) Kalikow: I loved the comment about the sex diff wrt
multitasking. Maybe
that's why we see more women driving
& using cellphones & putting
on their makeup at the same time?
('scuse me, I have to go slap
myself for sexism now)
Richard Seltzer: still haven't gotten into using a cell phone.
(For an
"evangelist", I'm very slow to
adopt some technology...)
HibbspcExplorer: I believe we should decide the audience and the nature
of the event
before talking much further. I.e.e
conferences where anyone can
show up? O egular sessions by
the same people? Or what?
HibbspcExplorer: We have many times tested placeware, and just about
every other
such provider.
Richard Seltzer: Can you provide a quick summary of what you have learned?
What is
good for what and why? -- I suspect
that even the ones who try to
do it all end up really serving
one or two niches well.
HibbspcExplorer: I feel very, very strongly about a few things..which
is unusual as
I am a muddled thinker mostly.
Bob Zwick: Has anyone tried the WebEx suite ?
http://www.webex.com/office/bobzwick1
HibbspcExplorer: If you allow, I will add my Hibbs Rules here
- which are aimed at
conference gatherings like this
one.
Dan (phoneless) Kalikow: Not mine to "allow" but I'd be interested
in these Hibbs rules... R
they like Robert's Rules of Order?
Dan (phoneless) Kalikow: Yeh, placeware was one. Real cool-looking,
big Java app. Maybe it
was before its time, both in terms
of bandwidth & Java power? And true, best for "I AM THE SPEAKER" gatherings,
not so good for P2P. I saw WebEx at my last gig. Looked good. Expensive.
HibbspcExplorer: I tried webex and found it had the same fault as all others.
Richard Seltzer: What is that same fault?
HibbspcExplorer: structured for a radio audience. sucks most of the time
Richard Seltzer: Welcome, Tim, Bob Fleischer, John Abele -- would you
folks like to
try the POTS phone room? We may
have a quorum.
John Abele: First chat for me. I'm on the phone with somebody
else. ADD, I
guess.
Richard Seltzer: Welcome. What's your main interest with regard to online
discussion?
Richard Seltzer: Dan -- Please tell us about QuickTopic and how it fits into the mix?
HibbspcExplorer: With regard to IAMTHESPEAKER -- who the hell wants
to visit in real
time the Big Guru when you can
visit when and where you want?
Richard Seltzer: Please clarify. I am not familiar with
"IAMTHESPEAKER". Is that a
site? Or are you just referring
to that style -- used by placeware
and often by AOL -- where there
is the big guy in front of the
audience, and everyone else has
lesser status.
Dan (phoneless) Kalikow: Not a site, a style as you guessed. In my experience,
such tools
require a sometimes elaborate
"passing of the control baton" to
allow someone else to take the
e-Podium. Yuck.
Dan (phoneless) Kalikow: Right on bro. P2P B D place 2 B.
Richard Seltzer: All -- as you connect, please introduce yourselves
and let us know
your interests.
HibbspcExplorer: First and most absolute rule. Keep it simple
stupid. KISS
Second Rule. Have two chat rooms from
two servers so if therer is
trouble those in trouble can go
to the secondary room
Richard Seltzer : Amen. As for the first rule, sometimes
it's fun to break that. Some of
the best sessions we had were
a demo of MOOs, where we were
multiplexing galore, running back
and forth from our regular chat
room to the MOOs.
HibbspcExplorer: Third rule. Text chat is great and the foundation
for ALL
conferences
HibbspcExplorer: Fourth Rule - Select a chat room which has great features
useable
by all. that may be rule one?
Richard Seltzer: Exception to said rule -- if all parties who will participate
have
the same equipment and software
setup, you can go for the max.
Otherwise, you have to plan for
the lowest likely common
denominator.
Dan (phoneless) Kalikow: As someone who has never truly "fallen for"
the attractions of
realtime text chat (I guess it's
my cellphone-equivalent what with
all the IM going on), I put more
weight on asynch web-based text
conferencing, for which a simple
browser most always suffices.
Bob Zwick: I assume you are talking about Discussion Forums.
The ones that notify you of replies
to a specific thread are the
best. Others make it too easy
to fall out of the flow of
information.
Dan (phoneless) Kalikow: Bob -- that's what http://www.quicktopic.com
does -- great
multithreading, email notification
etc... More later.
Richard Seltzer: Yes, one of the features I like best about SiteScape
Forum is the
email alerts. NB -- Dan was once
an advocate, evangelist for the
forerunner of SiteScape -- WorkGroupWebForum.
On several occasions
the two of us had to scramble
to keep that development project
alive at Digital. Digital didn't
really want to be in the software
business, certainly not the Internet
software business, and didn't
know what to do with this as a
product, regardless of how good it
was.
HibbspcExplorer
(we can talk about text chat featuress
later. allow me to continue.
please
HibbspcExplorer
Next rule. Use the regular telephone
and announce it clearly so
those in trouble can phone for
help
Richard Seltzer
All -- does anyone want us (those
who can and wish) to connect to
the phone room? (It is a toll
charge, calling to Florida. For most
of us that means 5 to 10 cents
a minute).
HibbspcExplorer: Rule Six - The telephone room we have is great. Try
to talk those
who resist the long distance charges
out of that worry and talk hem
into getting something really
done. I say this is like paying for a
railroad ticket as vs. flying
with the Wright Bros. Makes the
conversation easy and wonderful
especially the panelists who draw
the crowd
Richard Seltzer: Having said that, let's give it a try. Those who can,
please dial
305-503-6666. As soon as you get
an answer, enter the extension --
802.
Richard Seltzer: Tim in Nashua -- please introduce yourself and
let us know your
interests.
HibbspcExplorer: Next rule - bridge the telephone to telephony
and encourage
telephony to the telephone room.
Not too hard. We can provide an
easy way for that by an email
circular
Richard Seltzer: John Hibbs -- what is the limit on the number of participants
for
your POTS phone room?
Richard Seltzer -- John Hibbs -- Is that Easy Conference (POTS)
service available to
anyone anytime? What do you have
to do to sign up and get a number?
And is that number only available
for a limited time.
HibbspcExplorer: sure you can use this number anytime. I can book the room.
Richard Seltzer: 2) I mean if I wanted to do a conference call using
this service,
could I and how could I and would
there be a charge?
Dan (phoneless) Kalikow: Well, heck, I was always a sucker for a good
analogy. So pls
disregard the "phoneless" in my
moniker du jour -- I'm on my
way...:-)
Richard Seltzer: Sounds like the title of a novel -- Dan (phoneless) Kalikow.
Dan (phoneless) Kalikow: I'm now chatting in the phone room with John H.
John Abele: Hmmmmm. Is this the way most of your chats go? I was
hoping to see
some "best in class" practice.
Richard Seltzer: Best of class for what particular application? There's
a lot that
you can do with chat. Right now
we are brainstorming.
John Abele: About who's on the phone? Lost connections? My interest
is
organizing communities of interest
in the various activities I'm
involved in...philanthropy, venture,
business (medical devices).
Bob Zwick: John - I have just started such a communtiy for teachers
that would
definitely apply to what you do.
http://e-school.intranets.com/
John Abele: Thanks, Bob. I clicked on and couldn't get back without
resigning.
Is there a way to keep 'em both
on line?
Bob Zwick: Right click on the link and select Open in a New Window
Richard Seltzer: Sometimes we push the limits and hence run into
glitches, which can
be helpful in learning the limits
Bob Zwick: John this is the very first time we tried a phone conference
at the
same time as the chat
John Abele: Fair enough. You're allowed a few glitches.
Dan (phoneless) Kalikow: Try the phone world -- lotsa action there now, John... :-)
Kathleen Gilroy: Hi Richard, I just joined you on this chat
and curious about how
this is working.
Richard Seltzer: Welcome. IF you can, please call 305-503-6666 X 503
John Abele: Hi Kathleen. This is my first chat.
Richard Seltzer: Sorry. This is a strange sort of intro to text
chat -- since half
of us are now talking to one another
by phone.
If you'd just like to test text
chat, please contact me by email
and I'll set up a conversation
with you. seltzer@samizdat.com
John Abele: Thanks. Will do.
Bob Zwick: This is like driving and talking on the
cell phone - DANGEROUS and
I can't concentrate on both
Richard Seltzer: Kathleen -- I think that this room of John Hibbs' might
be very
useful for your distance ed apps.
Kathleen Gilroy: Hi John, This has been a messy chat but it is an interesting
new
application. What are the advantage
of the telephone-to-chat bridge?
Dan (phoneless) Kalikow: What about the tyranny of real time (especially
when participants
are smeared across latitudes)
-- asynch conferencing has tremendous
value in that case, in my experience.
Better than phone or internet
telephony, in that case. Reactions?
Bob Zwick: Dan - which async services do you use or recommend ?
Richard Seltzer: Bob -- I believe I got an email announcement
from you yesterday. Do
you have a distance ed chat session
set up for 1:15 today (right
after this?) If so, please provide
the link so these folks could
find their way there?
Bob Zwick: Yes there is a general chat about teaching on-line right
after this
one. It's at http://e-school.intranets.com/
Anyone can enter as a guest and
then click on the "E-School
Community Chat Room"
Kathleen Gilroy: We are looking at applications that link telephony
to various web
applications but we need more
than just chat: we need things like
polling and data sharing. Right
now we are looking at webex as the
best of the various solutions
that are out there. They seem to have
the best support, which is a huge
issue.
Bob Zwick: I have been using WebEx for about 6 month's. I don't think
it can
be beat.
Dan (phoneless) Kalikow: Kathleen, since you're at Sloan/Kennedy, do
you like synch stuff
because it's compatible with "lecture-style"
classes? (everyone
there at the same time)...?
Kathleen Gilroy: Bob, I'd like to talk with you about your use of webex.
It seems to
be the solution that is being
rapidly adopted by the most
corporations. Have you used the
polling feature? Have you used it
with large numbers of people?
Richard Seltzer: Kathleen -- re: polling. Have you checked Zoomerang
for free online
surveys. Some of the functionality
might be useful for you.
Bob Zwick: I have used the FREE service which has limits as to time
for
certain features and number of
participants. I'd be happy to tell you about what I've learned about using
the
service. Just request a meeting
at http://www.webex.com/office/bobzwick1
Kathleen Gilroy: Dan, we are building a teaching/learning model that
combines
synchronous sessions -- at the
beginning and end of the course --
mostly to profile the audience
and draw conclusions -- with
asynchronous web boards and discussions
for the case studies,
project development, and collaboration.
We also use synchronous
chat for "office hours" with the
faculty and guest speakers. In an
upcoming the course we are using
chat to bring in David Kessler who
took on tobacco as the head of
the FDA. We are doing a case study
of his work and we will make him
available by chat to the enrolled
students.
Dan (phoneless) Kalikow: Tnx!! There seems to be a psychological
divide amongst ppl (which
you seem to be bridging) between
those who lean on synch
chatting/telephony, and asynch
boards/collabs. more later...
Bob Zwick: I think there is a time for sync and a time for async and
neither
one is enough to do the whole
job.
Dan (phoneless) Kalikow: 100% true
Kathleen Gilroy: I also just want to make the point that we are
thinking about using
the telephone for delivery of
the audio because the web is not
really ready for streaming media.
Everybody knows how to use the
phone so it lowers the barrier
for getting people to participate in
the synchronous sessions.
Richard Seltzer: Amen. The POTS can be very useful -- no fancy software,
no fancy
equipment.
Dan (phoneless) Kalikow: Kathleen, what sorts of asynch boards/collab
tools are you into at
the moment?
Kathleen Gilroy: 'Kathleen, what sorts of asynch boards/collab tools
are you into...')
We are now using a platform from
Ars Digita, which was developed by
an MIT professor, which is free
and open source. It was originally
deployed for a community of amateur
photographers and it has the
best deployment of boards and
emails. It also has a portal page
that so that we can customize
the view for each student and
personalize their learning experience.
Richard Seltzer: All -- over the phone, John Hibbs has been saying that
all the text
and polling and instant messaging
etc. and asynchronous discussion
works great on the Web. But interactive
streaming voice still has
glitches. An ordinary phone room
can get around that problem for
today.
Richard Seltzer: I.e., there is a time for real time, there is
a time for unreal
time, there is a time to live
and a time to die... (Ecclesiastes
had it right...)
Dan (phoneless) Kalikow:You are too much :-) as ever! Unreal time...
Richard Seltzer: Or imaginary time (as imaginary numbers)...
Richard Seltzer: Kathleen -- what do you use for the voice piece today?
Kathleen Gilroy: Presentation of the lecture materials, supported by graphics anddatasharing over the web.
Bob Zwick How do you handle real time presentation to the rest of the world with the time differences?
Bob Zwick: John Hibbs - the chat coming up after this one is an offshoot of the WebShare page you already know about. It is simplified and includes voice, text and a way to push links to the group.
Dan (phoneless) Kalikow: Is WebEx open source? (who's the proprietor?)
Kathleen Gilroy: No, webex is a proprietary service. It is not inexpensive but, as I said earlier, it is being rapidly adopted within corporations.
Bob Zwick: Proprietary by WebEx.Com - licensing only, but can be installed on your server, I believe.
Richard Seltzer: FYI -- on the phone Kathleen is exlaining that WebEx integrates the voice and the Web and now does it all in java so there's no need to download software.
Dan (phoneless) Kalikow: Whoops, must fly. (Richard -- I'm lunching with Dave Doucette) --bye all /Dan
Richard Seltzer: We're wrapping up now. We hope to have a followup discussion
next Thursday, once again led by John Hibbs. Please send followup email.
to me at seltzer@samizdat.com
Kathleen Gilroy: I'm going to have to sign off.
Bob Zwick - bobzwick@e-school.intranets.com
Richard Seltzer: Thanks to all. Hope to see you next week.
To connect to the chat room, go to www.samizdat.com/chat-intro.html
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