Threads (reconstructed after the fact):
- Today's participants
- Introductions
- Multicity
- Quicktopic
- David Weinberger's book
- Server.com
- Business models based on "free service"
- Resources for distance education
- Internet telephony and voice chat
- Newsgroups (after the demise of Deja.com)
- Text chat and asynchronous (forum-style) discussion
- SiteScape (where this chat is being held)
- Chat sites with transcripts
- Why do you do this?
- Wrapup
Today's Participants
- John Hibbs (HibbsPC), hibbs@bfranklin.edu, http://www.bfranklin.edu
- Dan Kalikow, DrDan@Kalikow.com, http://www.kalikow.com/~drdan
- Tracy Marks tmar@tiac.net, http://www.windweaver.comhttp://www.webwinds.com
- Susan E. Race
- Sean Brunnock brunnock@server.com, http://server.com
- Richard Seltzer, seltzer@samizdat.com, http://www.samizdat.com/
- Bob Zwick, bob@cottagemicro.com , http://www.cottagemicro.com, DE Site http://www.cottagemicro.com/education/, Teacher Intranet http://e-school.intranets.com, E-Book site http://www.cottagemicro.com/ebooks
Introductions
Richard Seltzer -- We'll be starting in about half an hour, at noon Eastern Standard Time (GMT -5). When you connect, please introduce yourself and let us know your interests. That will help us get off to a quick start.HibbsPC -- I'm john
hibbs,
http://www.bfranklin.edu
interested in all things that make communication faster, cheaper, better
Dan Kalikow -- Hi
-- just got back online after being offline a couple weeks...
Richard Seltzer --
Yes, welcome Dan. How are you doing? Have you used SiteScape muchlately?
And how is your job hunt going? Have you been trying any of the distance
ed companies? I'dthink
that would be right up your alley from all your pioneeringwork
in online interaction/discussion.
Dan Kalikow -- Hunt's
really only now gonna get started. Been sponging off my kids in CA :-)
... no, haven't used SiteScape in many moons.
Richard Seltzer --
All -- it's now noon, so I guess we have officially "started." The topic
for today is official -- free stuff on the Web. But anything goes.
Multicity
HibbsPC -- On the
subject of free stuff, multicity message boards (http://www.multicity.com)
are veryhandy. I wqould recommend
that Richard start one where all the book marks could be listed...easier
than transcripts
Richard Seltzer --
I'll certainly take a look and try it. But keep in mind that the transcripts
generate traffic for my site and lead people to take a look at my other
stuff. The typical transcript gets about 1000 visitors over the course
of a year.
HibbsPC -- If you
put
a page up on your site with the link to the message board, they still come
to your site. you might view how we have done this at http://www.bfranklin.edu/champions/board.htm
Richard Seltzer --
It's text that drives traffic to a site. The more text the better -- search-engine
stuff...
HibbsPC -- The board
is a nice way to thread any single topic, but for me, personally, a good
place to store stuff as well as on my hard drive.
Quicktopic
Dan Kalikow -- I have
an interesting free service I've been consulting with...http://www.quicktopic.com
.
web conferencing hybridized with email, plus a really innovative add-on...
(more later)
Richard Seltzer--
How does quicktopic differ from services like Delphi and egroups (Yahoo)
etc.?Is it a general purpose discussion
space? Or are they aiming at a particular niche?
Dan Kalikow -- QT
(abbrev for QuickTopic) has a whole lot simpler UI than eGroups."Preposterously
easy" is the tagline of its developer...
Recent
addition to QT is a "Document Review" service wherein author can upload
a work-in-progress and ask a group of distributed people on the web to
give general or specific comments. Everyone can see everyone else's comments.
I don't believe it's available anywhere else. Getting great reviews in
BYTE, Yahoo Internet Life, etc.(disclaimer:
I'm a consultant for it, hence my obvious bias<G>)
Richard Seltzer --
You should take a look at MangoMind, from MangoSoft. Don Gaubatz (former
Digital VP) is in charge of marketing. File sharing on the Web with an
interface that makes everything feel like you are using Windows on your
PC. There might be partnership possibilities...But
MangoMind is not free. It's actually quite expensive, aimed ata
corporate audience, where security is critical.
Dan Kalikow -- Academic
relatives of mine are very excited about QT Doc Review's potential in distance
education (particularly in creative writing, scholarly work, screenwriting...)
Richard Seltzer --
Interesting. Are you using it yourself for your own writings?
Dan Kalikow -- I'm
not doing much writing at the moment (collaborative writing, that is).
Been proselytizing amongst authors in my family & friends, getting
good reception there!
Dan Kalikow -- QuickTopic
offers co-branding, btw. Groups are self-moderating, if the Topic moderator
allows...
Richard Seltzer --
Are there any showcase customers/users? And do they use those showcases
to catch the attention of potential customers and/or to prompt them with
ideas of effective ways to use the service?
Dan Kalikow -- Pardon
my QT-fixation, but I promised some more info aboutprivate-label
Quick Topic areas. I just remembered that Keith Dawson's use of QT is for
an internal, by-invitation-only group, sogiving
out the URL's inappropriate. There's another private label QT, I'll run
down info on it if I can.
I would really be
interested in anyone here who's writing something and would like reviewers'
comments to look into QT Document Review. I worked on the UI and some advanced
functionality in it, and would be happy to serve as a reviewer if invited.
For the purpose of ensuring that the tool "fits your hand," so to speak.
QT is a free, no-advertising service, done as an experiment in groupware.
See the FAQ, Acknowledgements and "What they're saying" pages for more
info.
HibbspcExplorer --
I signed up for qucktopic and will see how it works. I have always thought
that quick emailgroping would be as good as chat??
David
Weinberger's book
Dan Kalikow -- Speaking
of free services, well this isn't a service strictly speaking, but David
Weinberger (of ClueTrain Manifesto fame) is putting up a new book for public
review. See pointer at his website (q.v., future posting, brainfaulting
now). He's not using QuickTopic, but hey pobody's nerfeck. Fascinating
to see an author's thought process in the act of creation! Hibbs, I don't
know of anyone making a living this way (yet<G>)
Dan Kalikow -- Weinberger's
at http://www.hyperorg.com/current/current.html
. Check out the main QuickTopic website, you can start your own Topics
in 20 sec. Keith Dawson's TBTF newsletter often uses QT, privately-branded.
More details later. Tracy, QT can imho serve as an excellent ad-hoc newsgroups,
though Deja's newsgroup searching/posting is not on the cards.
Richard Seltzer --
Thanks for the link. I love ClueTrain. (My reviews are athttp://www.samizdat.com/clue.html
and
http://www.samizdat.com/listen.html)
Server.com
Sean -- Hi Richard,
Sean here from http://server.com . We've
been providing free Web services since 9/96.
Susan E. Race -- Hello,
Sean; Susan Race here. How does one access your service?
Sean -- Strictly over
the Web- http://server.com
Richard Seltzer --
What kind of free Web services do you provide?
Sean -- We also host
mailing lists. So you can receive our service via email as well.
Richard Seltzer --
My impression is that we're now seeing a proliferation of very specialized
and powerful services -- as opposed to general purpose ones. E.g., not
just email, but email with encryption. Not just file transfer, but transfer
of huge files. Not just discussion space, but space configured for distance
ed, etc.
Sean -- Richard- To
answer your question, yes, we're still dependent on ad revenue. We've always
offered ad-free subscriptions, but few people are willing to pay.
Richard Seltzer --
Sean -- how do you differentiate yourselves? Do you focus on certain kinds
of uses of your service? And how many users do you have?
Sean -- Richard- Not
to brag, but we were one of the first companies to offer free mailing lists,
message boards, calendars, etc. Over the past two years many competitors
have jumped into our space.
Dan Kalikow -- Sean,
pointers to those interesting-sounding services? How do you make $$s from
'em, also?
Richard Seltzer --
Yes, there do seem to be many competitors now. Are you doing anything special
to differentiate yourselves now? E.g., doing a little bit of customizing
to make those services more attractive for distance ed and/or other market
niches? Or are you encouraging influencers/leaders to use your services
in very visible ways? And have you considered offering paid custom services
to help folks use your free stuff more effectively? (e.g., adding branding,
or moderation, etc.)
Sean -- We're different
in that we offer a suite of services and we're very efficient. We've been
profitable while many of our competitors have folded or are on the verge
of doing so.
All of our services
are on
http://server.com. We've been making
money primarily from ads.
Richard Seltzer --
With ad revenues declining, are you looking at other alternatives? It's
great that you have survived while others have gone other. But I don't
expect the ad revenue trend to turn around...
Sean
-- Richard- We're waiting to see how this Internet depression plays out.
You don't want to partner with someone who might be out of business in
a few weeks!
Business
models based on "free service"
HibbspcExplorer --
Is anyone making any money in all these free service?
Richard Seltzer --
In the early days, companies offered free services because they expected
to make money selling advertising to the audience they won. Now that has
largely gone away. I see manyinstances
of the free being just the introductory, base level, with the "professional"
level being fee-based. Other models?
Sean -- We were profitable
for
'98, '99 and 2000. Currently, we are breaking even until the online ad
market improves.
Richard Seltzer --
Are you still dependent on ad revenues? Or have you added other revenue
streams?
Dan Kalikow -- Good
question about P2P (path to profitability). Good services tend to get glommed
by profit-making enterprises (e.g., eGroups by Yahoo)...
Dan Kalikow -- How
would free telephony get profitable? Bought by a popular portal or by a
Telco fearful of competition, perhaps?
HibbspcExplorer --
in answer to dan's question, most of these use the free service to get
hooked on the PRO version, which costs
Sean -- Richard- most
of the experts agree that the online ad market will pick up in the second
half of this year. 1.) Many publishers are going out of business which
dries up the inventory, 2.) Traditionaladvertisers
will be taking the place of the dot-com companies which spent a lot of
money last year.
Richard Seltzer --Yes,
those things will happen. But the underlying problem is the nature of banner
ads. It's a deadend approach. "Advertising" might thrive, but it will have
to be creative and useful stuff, not annoying, irrelevant banners... Along
those lines, I like javapuzzlecards (they are currently in inhibernation
while they move to a new server, but it's good stuff.) What's you email
address?
HibbspcExplorer --
IMHO on line ads arent half as effective as very targeted emails, especially
via news groups, thought they take a lot of time and effort...which is
costly as well...but, since Im not making money, who am I to offer advice?
Sean -- We have yet
to run an ad for Coke or Tide. I'm looking forward to it!
Dan Kalikow -- I like
the hopeful note about web ads, Sean! I just was RIF'ed out of Engage --
their web ad biz tanked bigtime. Of course, they deserved it :)
Richard Seltzer --
See my article "Banner ads are dead, long live online advertising" at http://www.samizdat.com/puzzle.html
Sean -- Richard, we
try to keeps the ads low-key- we only run one banner ad per page. My email
is brunnock@server.com .
Sean -- Dan- Yeah.
a lot of ad reps weren't very smart about how they did business. We're
trying to identify the smart ones.
Sean -- I find that
the subscription services go out of business faster than the free ones.
Proxicom folded early, for example.
Richard Seltzer --
Free is definitely important -- you need to get a lot of people used to
using what you offer and coming up with creative uses. But somewhere (these
days) you need a revenue model that doesn't depend entirely on banner ads
(at least that's my take).
Sean -- Lotus tried
to sell a subscription version of Notes over the web years ago.
Dan Kalikow -- Apropos
subscription services and ASPs, I've been encouraging QuickTopic to move
into an installed-behind-the-firewall, corporate-type collab system. It'd
be an ideal lightweightfront-end
to a full-blown KM system (whatEVER that is), imho. Lotsa corporate types
like QT a whole lot, but not as an ASP; they wantit
behind their firewalls.
Richard Seltzer --
It will be interesting to see how these business models evolve. Lots of
players now in the discussion/collaboration space. I suspect that having
some custom niche-specific features would be important for survival at
this stage...
Resources
for distance education
HibbspcExplorer --
richard, do you think you have the best portal for all the free stuff useable
in distance education? It would seem a whole page should be created and
re-created with commens such as this...if not reinventing the wheel that
is.
Richard Seltzer --
I don't have that now. But would like to. I'd gladly build such a page
(and link to it from free.html). The more the merrier.
Dan Kalikow -- I really
resonate to a "portal" (i.e., compendium) of distance ed sites. Did you
say you have such a beastie already, Richard?
Richard Seltzer --
Not yet. I have lots of related stuff, but need to organize it in useful
ways. Perhaps I should hold a chat or two focused on services that distance
ed can and should take advantage of...
Dan Kalikow -- That'd
be interesting (not least, for a job search in that area<G>)Well,
I'm going to be looking for something in collaboration, a distance ed list
would be real helpful
Richard Seltzer --
You should take a look at Bob Zwick's distance ed area.http://www.cottagemicro.com
Dan Kalikow -- Sure
will -- TNX!!
Bob Zwick -- Please
look at my new teacher intanet at http://e-school.intranets.comIntranets.com
is the best free service I have come acros ever.
Richard Seltzer --
Intranets seems to be a good example of what I've been mentioning -- instead
of just offering discussion/collaboration space, they seem to have provided
a customized tailored space for one or more niches -- like distance ed.
Is that accurate?
Bob Zwick -- They
also include third party free stuff instead of reinventing the wheel. i.e.
Mail Server and Instant Messaging
HibbspcExplorer --
Dan, email me hibbs@bfranklin.edu and I will follow up. We do some writing
for technology magazines with a distance education focus
Internet
telephony and voice chat
HibbspcExplorer --
I happen to be very impressed with a new telephony service, with the underliying
technology provided by http://www.hearme.comTry
http://www.telcopoint.com
Dan Kalikow -- More
detail, Hibbs? Sounds cool...
Richard Seltzer --
Please send all the suggestions you can come up with. I see a main list
of general services, and an associated list with ones directly applicable
for distance ed (with commentary on how they could and should be used,
and also with links to examples -- not just the free site, but folks who
are using it well and creatively).
Dan Kalikow -- I suppose
you need a PC with a built-in mic and sound, plus what kind of bandwidth?
Richard Seltzer --
Sound stuff seems to work fine at about 28K. Video is a different proposition.
Most PCs made in the last three years have a sound card build in. You just
plug in a microphone. (Many PC games and education programs give away a
free mic with the software).
Richard Seltzer --
Also services related to palm and wireless and cell phone. But once again,
the challenge is how to set up your service to eventually make money...
HibbspcExplorer --
it seems to me we should expand these chats to free telephony..I like your
cam and seeing you Richard, why not hear your voice as well?
HibbspcExplorer --
I think the text chat room is really neat for url's and quick questions
but the elabobrations are better by audio. I think the audio encourages
more visitors, as more is learned with the chat text serving as a framework.
as I say, the very best one so far is http://www.telcopoint.com,
imho...I can email you all the dope...we can have a trial.
Richard Seltzer --
It gets tricky juggling many sources of input/output at the same time.
Hey, but it's fun learning to do that stuff.
HibbspcExplorer --
of couse what I like to do best is have a combination of telephy and telephone
room...we can do that pretty easily as well. all can talk either over phone,
or over mike. shoot, all I do is put on the speaker phone near a mike and
talk in to the phone, but therer are easier ways...I just cant handle trickery
...im really a dunce!
HibbspcExplorer --use
the speaker phone and put the mike next to it so the audio can come from
either the mike, over the net, or from the telephone conference room, which
best for keynoters who dont want to botherexcept
to make a phone call. on their dime.
Newsgroups
(after the demise of deja.com)
tracymarks -- hello
all. I don't want to interrupt but someone on the isig-boston list suggested
I drop in here right now.....I'm looking for free web-based alternatives
to deja.com newsgroups since deja.com shut down last week. you also might
be interested in my page of free web design online resources at http://www.webwinds.com/k12/htmltools.htm
Richard Seltzer --
Welcome, Tracy, glad you could make it. I thought that Deja was bought
by Google and that Google intended to bring it back to life. What's happening?
(Unfortunately, AltaVista killed their newsgroup search service.
Text
chat and asynchronous (forum-style) discussion
HibbspcExplorer --
Is it o.k. o alk about text chat rooms? I am still looking for a text chat
room where the visitors are all visible all the time, where I can view
a profile, where a ulr can be clicked from thepage
and where the transcripts are automatic and where you can have text translations
to other languages like multi city does...any hope here Bob??
Richard Seltzer --
John, if participants register here, you can view their profile at any
time. (not so for anonymous) you can click URLs from the page (and not
lose your context) and the transcripts are automatic. But no translation...
Dan Kalikow -- I've
never really grokked why text chat is so addictive. Young relatives of
mine love Instant Messaging, etc. -- while I, and others weaned on DECnotes
etc., love asynchronous threaded dialogs. Perhaps it's the feeling that
JOE IS HERE WITH ME ONLINE that is good. Dunno.
Bob Zwick -- John
- haven't seen a complete package like that yet. MultiCity is the only
translation offering I know of. I haven't test the administrative features
of their #30 /mo. package yet. It may havesome
of the profiling features.
HibbspcExplorer --
what I think some of us could do to make money is offer a true alternative
to the on line conferecing from others that is expensive, yet ours, in
total are better...any takers?
Richard Seltzer --
It's probably a matter of packaging useful and generally free services
to work smoothly together -- like voice chat and instant messaging and
chat and forums and webcam... A friend of mine who now works for Panasonic
like to play with that sort of thing and is very good at it. Anthony Alvarez.
HibbspcExplorer --
I dont know anyone that combines pots (plain ordinary telephone system),
telephony, text chat and clue train as well as we do tracymarks -- John,
I was looking into the same (without translation) the past week (Richard's
setup here is viable) and found that both talkcity and lycos chat have
transcript capability if you use theirsoftware. HibbspcExplorer --
the translation is not so important except for global learn day then it
is wonderful, the key things are archive, profiles and viewing easily all
the people in the room any time, plus urlclicking
and stability and cross platform mac and p.c. Bob Zwick -- The best
group chat/ presentation offering I have found is a http://www.webex.com,
Includes chat, video, pot callin, web page push, application sharing, white
boarding, logging and more. but it's costly. Richard Seltzer --
We need to get a better feel for the range of what's possible/available
from the free through the expensive. Sometimes the free version isn't very
useful. Sometimes a moderate pricedservice
makes better sense than a free one, for the time it saves you and the additional
things it lets you do. Dan Kalikow -- I've
seen webex. Very complete. Mucho buckos, as Bob says. HibbspcExplorer --
where do I register my profile? I have not seen? for example, how do I
find Sean's profile? in matchmaker for example, you just click on the name
of the chatter and it takes you to their profile, never leaving their site? Richard Seltzer --
If Sean had registered (which I don't think he did), you could get to his
profile from the entry page here. HibbspcExplorer --
I dont think I ever filled out a profile. We have a nice room (not multi
city) where when you enter you are asked to give a url. matchmake asks
for age, hair color and boob size. :)you
then can click on the name and take them to the profile. really, really
neat, especially when having a phone conversation and you want to moderate
who should talk...if pope john comes in, everyone else shuts up.what
I am especially hoping for is that first time visitors find it friendly
and easy...name used in room; email, url, photo...sumpin like that -- bob? Richard Seltzer --
I have set this space up to make it easy for any anonymous visitor to come
in. But you can register if you like, adding a complete profile. From the
entry page, click on Add, then Register, for starters. There are many features
here that I simply have not turned on for this activity. E.g., I can set
up groups of users with different access permissions for different pieces
of this space. I can also send email to a group or an individual, and that
email could be a posting from here. Lots more. I just haven't needed that
stuff for what I was focusing on. Bob Zwick -- Richard
- Sitescape is a paid service, not free. Am I correct ? Richard Seltzer --
Yes, SiteScape is not free. They allow me to do lots of good stuff for
free -- but that's an exception. Their main business is for-a-fee. tracymarks -- Am just
checking out multicity now. I don't see transcript capability for the free
chats. Bob Zwick -- Tracy
- Transcripts and admin of users is only available in the paid version. HibbspcExplorer --
no, they dont have that and it is their chief weakness.!!! we paid $500.
for a chat room from Italy and forgot to see if they archived...bad thinking! HibbspcExplorer --
thanks tracy, happy to know you can get transcripts from multi city even
if paying HibbspcExplorer --
why do you do it at all?, Richard Richard Seltzer --
1) I learn a lot from these discussions 2) I make important contacts 3)
through the content in the edited transcripts (and search engines) I get
lots of traffic, which leads to consultingand
writing business. HibbspcExplorer
-- it sure takes dedication! Richard Seltzer --
Please check http://www.samizdat.com/chat.html
for the editedtranscript. You can
see the raw transcript by clicking Close here. Please end followup thoughts
to me at seltzer@samizdat.com Hope you all can come back next Thursday. HibbspcExplorer --
ok times up. bye bye. see ya next thursday, god willing. tracymarks -- Goodbye
all. nice to see some of you again, if only briefly. Dan Kalikow -- I really
enjoyed eMeeting you all! Tnx Richard. As always. Richard Seltzer --
Thanks to all. Hope to "see" you all again next Thursday. Transcript of the Feb.
15 chat on the same subject
Previous transcripts and schedule of upcoming chats -- www.samizdat.com/chat.html
To connect to the chat room, go to www.samizdat.com/chat-intro.html
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Why
do you do this?
Wrapup
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