BUSINESS ON THE WORLD WIDE WEB:
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Tim Again -- hi ya
Folks - Tim Again from New Hampshire here. Am I first in line for the free
stuff?
Richard Seltzer --
Welcome, Tim, and also John Watkins. Unfortunately, we don't have any free
stuff here, but we do want to talk about what's free and why, and what's
changing. What's your favorite?
Bob@CottageMicro.com
-- Hello everyone- I'm Bob Zwick - independent constultant from Dallas,
Texas
Richard Seltzer --
Welcome, Bob. Glad you could make it. What's your favorite free service
on the Web? And what service that's gone away do you miss most?
John Watkins -- This
is John Watkins. I run a small non-profit organization -- Simple Society.
I'm a bit at sea about how to participate When I connected to this chat,
I briefly saw a list of all the postings anmd then it switched the most
current post--how does one get a chance to truly review what has been said
in order to respond properly?
hibbs -- sorry to
be late
Ron Rothenberg --
Hello, Ron Rothenberg here.
Richard Seltzer--
Welcome, Ron. What are you up to now? Still taking courses? Or have you
started a new company yet? And what's your favorite free service on the
Web today?
Ron Rothenberg --
I was working for a dot-com for a while, but they are on the verge of going
under, so I'm free again.
Richard Seltzer --
What kind of position are you looking for? Real estate or Internet? (Recruiters
often send me queries asking if I know of people who are available).
Ron Rothenberg --
i am looking for a programming job -- I didn't make as much progress as
i would have liked at the last job -- no one to ask questions of really
- very frustrating. My resume is at http://www.ronrothenberg.com/
Bob@CottageMicro.com
-- Tim - Are you in the field of education ?
Tim Again -- no -
doing a career change - like to focus on formal Quality management. How
about you Bob?
Bob@CottageMicro.com
-- I'm in the Distance Education (WEB) enabling business and E-Book publishing.
Tim Again -- so ---
no free stuff here? hmmm, typically Companies provide free stuff for information.
ie opinions, name, rank and demographics.
Richard Seltzer --
Yes, the rationale for free stuff (at least on the Web) has been based
on advertising and advertising-related info. If they could get you to sign
up for a newsletter or to receive targeted opt-in email, that's a value
they could resell.
Over the first few
years of the Web, it seemed like anything that was useful would eventually
be made available for free -- from Internet access to Web hosting space
to good software. Everybody was looking for "members", "visitors", eyeballs
that they could resell through advertising or that they could use to convince
investors that they had a good business proposition. With the sharp decline
in online advertising, the value of eyeballs has declined, and many free
services have either gone away or tried to morph into paid services.
Tim Again -- really?
I feel like more things are "free" rather than subscription based. 3 or
so years ago companies were all giving away one month trials but then hitting
you with subscription fees.
Richard Seltzer --
Last year, there were more than half a dozen free Internet access companies.
altavista, worldspy, freewwweb,1stup, spinway, and bluelight have all gone
away. The only two remaining players are Juno (4 million users) and Netzero
(7 million). That's typical.
Such services have
been disappearing so fast, it's hard to keep track.
Tim Again -- Many
things are "free" as a baseline with the hope of upselling. ie Ebay's auctions,
or imaging hosting.
Richard Seltzer --
eBay's auctions have never been "free." The sellers pay fees for posting
their auctions and additional fees based on a percentage of the sales price.
And in the last month the fees went up.
Tim Again -- yes,
I know the seller had a token listing fee of 25 now 30 cents. but the use
of the data and the marketplace was "free"
Richard Seltzer --
What "data" do you mean? They just blocked off access to the email addresses
of bidders, except to the seller of a particular auction. And what do you
mean the "marketplace was 'free'"?The
posting fee may be "token", but the % of sales is not (and hasn't been).
Another auction-related
example of what's changing, AuctionRover (bought by GoTo Auctions) used
to provide a very useful auction management system for free. It made it
easy to post your auctions to eBay, Amazon and Yahoo. Starting this month,
they charge for that service.
Tim Again -- regarding
access to previous bidders. about a year ago we had a lively discussion
about whether skimming was okay, legal and/or ethical.
Richard Seltzer--
Yes, it was never a good idea to try to grab email addresses from eBay
and make contacts out of the auction space, but it used to be possible.
Now they are trying hard to slam the door.
Tim Again -- hmmm,
Paypal is now charging for more than causal usage. do they charge a transaction
always or only when over a threshold?
Richard Seltzer --
I've made marginal use of Paypal, but I am a member (and have been for
a few months). I haven't seen anything from them about a change in policy.
I'd be interested in details. (Everybody seems to be pushing back, reducing
the free stuff, adding limitations, charging for what had been free, defining
a base level of service and then charging for a level of service that is
really useful.)
Bob@CottageMicro.com
-- Richard - do you think it's the "bait and switch" routine or just a
matter of making the service pay for itself?
Tim Again -- hmmm,
that's what we need is a P2P napster-like auction site.
Richard Seltzer --
Yes, indeed, Napster is an interesting example of a free service that is
going away. In that case, it's the courts and traditional businesses (with
antique business models) that are putting it down, as opposed to the dot.com
downturn (and the disappearance of ad revenue streams).
Tim Again -- over
the last month or so - i've been researching the Quality field (6sigma,
iso9000, certification and such) There is a lot of free stuff (information)
out there but to get the complete and usable in a business manner - you
need to invest. I have not done so yet but I will - as i am getting tired
of partial answers.
Richard Seltzer --
In many cases, a free basic service (piece of software) is offered and
you have to pay for a "professional" level -- e.g. humanclick, realplayer,
etc.
Richard Seltzer --
Bucking the trend, the free email services seem to be doing fine. Is that
the case? Or have I missed something?
Bob@CottageMicro.com
-- I use BigMailBox.com on my www.waxahachietexas.com
web site to offer local members free mail. It's great and free. I even
get to rotate MY banners in their advertising.
Tim Again --I
bet yahoo mail will not be free forever. as the portal sites consolidate
there will be charges "in order to serve you better"
Richard Seltzer--
Yes, I wouldn't be surprised if there were changes like that. But they
seem to be coming later and slower with email services than with others.
I'm wondering what's different about their business model that makes it
more stable/viable.
Ron Rothenberg --
http://www.freeworks.com
just announced they are closing feb. 20
Tim Again -- I just
signed up with uReach.com - I don't
have all the details at hand but the basic free service is pretty good
for an individual. (not business)
Richard Seltzer --
What does Ureach.com offer? I'm not familiar with them.
Tim Again -- re ureach
- i don't know the techno phrase for it but it provides a 800 number, yet
another mail address, you can leave a voice message for me and I can listen
to it via the web.
Richard Seltzer --
Sounds like eVoice. Also, probably
bears some similarity to efax. I tried eVoice, but they didn't let you
listen to your messages from pay phones, which kind of did away with the
utility of that kind of voice mail. As for efax, their trick was that the
"free account" they gave you required people to call numbers in Utah. Someone
across town might want to send you a fax, but would have to make a long-distance
call to Utah to do it. (Some of these offers aren't really as good as they
seem at first glance.) Are there any hidden problems with uReach?
Tim Again -- re ureach.com
I needed to setup a quick file store for some photos - I also wanted to
receive faxes. I have not played with it much yet.
Bob@CottageMicro.com
-- My latest freebie is http://intranets.com
a free collaboration service that gives 25mb free and options to add space
for an "anual" fee. I've implemented a techer intranet at http://e-school.intranets.com
Richard Seltzer --
What do they mean by "intranet" in that context? And what is it that they
provide (aside from Web space)? You can get plain vanilla Web space still
at Tripod, Geocities (Yahoo), and Xoom (NCBi) and Angelfire. But I gather
that intranets provides some unique services and a unique context.
Bob@CottageMicro.com
-- Intranet is a private network for sharing doc, discussions, calendar,
email, etc. Much more than just a drive like Mangomind.
Bob@CottageMicro.com
-- Is anyone using the FREE auctions at MultiCity?
Wonder if Auction Rover includes thheir auctions.
Richard Seltzer --
I haven't heard of MultiCity? What is a "free auction"? Do you mean free
to post (like Yahoo)? OR do you actually get merchandise for free?
hibbs -- my contribution:
multi city is free for message boards and chat rooms, verynice ones by
the way...visit http://www.bfranklin.edu/champions/board.htm
for the message board. visit http://www.bfranklin.edu/textchat
for the chat room
Richard
Seltzer -- Thanks for the info about Multicity. I'll have to check that
out. When I think of free message boards, first I think of Delphi
and Nicenet. And for email discussion,
Topica.
And for a combination of both eGroups (now part of Yahoo).
Bob@CottageMicro.com
-- Multi city is my 1st choice for chat and I also use their auctions.
They offer pay for service that is really reasonable too.
Richard Seltzer --
How do their auctions work? In what way are they free? (just no posting
fees?) And what other services do they offer?
hibbs -- We happen
to love multi city...also the text translation service works fine.
Richard Seltzer --
What languages do they translate? And how does that work? (I'm used to
AltaVista's free translation at http://babelfish.altavista.com,
which recently expanded to include Asian languages.)
hibbs -- well, multi
city is a free lunch so far. I love their message boards!
Tim Again -- John
- can i get some free advice? Why is Multicity's message board good? I've
stayed away from most others.
hibbs -- It isn't
free forever but we also offer voice-alert which allows one to make a phone
call, record a message, hang up and the audio is instantly uploaded for
hearing with those who have real audio plug in
hibbs -- I think that
bob's room is still the cats ass!
Bob@CottageMicro.com
--:)
Richard Seltzer --
And after all this time, I still haven't tried it. I'll have to soon...
(Others, he is referring to a service available at Bob Zwick's site http://www.cottagemicro.com)
Bob@CottageMicro.com
-- Thanks for the plug guys
hibbs -- do you know
about those vignettes guys, learning stuff for free
Richard Seltzer --
Another interesting one I recently heard of but haven't tried is freefind.
They provide you with a search engine index of your site.
Bob@CottageMicro.com
-- I have been using ATOMZ's free site
indexing service. Trouble is some of my sites exceed the 500 page limit
and I'd have to pay to index more pages.
Richard Seltzer --
Interesting. I'll have to take a look. 500 is quite a limitation though.
(I don't think freefind has such a limit -- I'll have to check).
Bob@CottageMicro.com
-- Good thing is you can index just sub directories and limit searches
that way.
hibbs -- or are we
only talking about application and software, not courses, etxc.?
Richard Seltzer --
All the above. There are, for instance, sites with free courses. Learnlots.com
used to one of them. Now they are attenza.
hibbs -- for vignettes
try Ray Jimenez, Ph.D. http://www.VignettesTraining.com
rjimenez@vignettestraining.com
Richard Seltzer--
What kinds of courses are available at Vignettes?
hibbs -- actually,
what is available there is more about what can be seen on line...pictorials
and so forth. You have to view it. More about leadership on line than anything...very
different..but very smooth and easy to view.
Tim Again -- I just
went off to www.VignettesTraining.com - wow! i haven't seen how their are
going to make money.
hibbs -- I don't know
how Vignettes will make money and neither do they. I have been in contact
with them...good guys.
Tim Again --update
on http://vignettestraining.com/services_fees.htm
those folks will do okay (if people tire of the partial free stuff.
Ron Rothenberg --
my favorite free service is travelocity's new search engine -- I can find
the lowest fare anywhere, then work backwards to find when it is available,
then buy it on the airline site --- I've gone to florida for 4 weekends
for $99/ea r/t and gotten 20,000 bonus ff miles. my other favorite free
sites are the free sites that tell you about free offers on the internet,
like gogoshopper.com and cityspree.com, etc. for coupons, free offers,
discount codes for retailers, etc.
hibbs -- have you
guys talked about free telephony? http://www.dialpad.com,
http://www.firetalk.com,
http://www.hearme.com
Bob@CottageMicro.com
-- HearMe is stiill free but they are undergoing major rebuilding. HearMe
is now email/web based and the regular talk chat is under telcopint who
is having design problems.
hibbs -- also, if
you ask nicely, we can provide a free telephone room where the callers
pay and all can talk. a nice, nice room
Bob@CottageMicro.com
-- John - I would sure like to know more about the telephone room. I still
don't quite understand how it works.
hibbs -- the telephone
room is really simple. I provide a number, in florida, with an extension.
All callers you give the number to can call in and talk freely. There is
no moderator, so "order" can be a problem. But it works splendly, especially
in cases where we transmit by real audio
Richard Seltzer --
So you are talking about an alternative to conference calls? using an ordinary
phone? or talking over the Internet?
Bob@CottageMicro.com
-- So it's a conference call that can be broadcast to a Real Server ?
hibbs -- we use it
as an ordinary place for ordinary conference calls
hibbs -- we also use
it as bridge to send the audio out for telephony. we also have people who
use, say dialpad.com, to telephone into the room for free
Bob@CottageMicro.com
-- Have you tried connecting the phone conversation to a voice chat room
?
hibbs -- the best
use was last year in gld where we used the telephone room, bridged the
audio to http://www.webcaster.com
(a radio service, free) which webcast the audio to about 50 people before
too much congestion
Richard Seltzer --
Very interesting. (All "gld" stands for Global Learning Day, a project
which John Hibbs runs each year).
hibbs -- this was
very nice because people could just listen over the phone, free if by telephony;
could talk with other panel members; could listen over real audioi, and
all transcribed...and all free except for long distance charges...we had
4 cent a minute rates for North Americans, ten cent a minute for Europeans...not
much money when you think about it.
I would love to do
more experimenting with text chat room, POTS room, and free radio webcasters
or free audio streaming.
Richard Seltzer --
Likewise (but what is "POTS")?
Bob@CottageMicro.com
-- POTS - Plain Old Telephone System
Richard Seltzer --
Thinking of voice chat --- how does Netmeeting work? I have the software
and camera and microphone, but have never had occasion to use it. Is it
worth experimenting with?
hibbs -- We have guys
in London who use netmeeting and swear by it. If you want to know all about
net meeting try Eric Baber <Eric@nll.co.uk> eric is a brilliant guy
teaching english over the net
Richard Seltzer --
Thanks. What's his involvement with netmeeting? heavy, regular user?
Bob@CottageMicro.com--
I dabbled with NetMeeting but got discouraged. Using the public servers
was always ify.
Richard Seltzer --
Some others (so I don't forget to mention them): anonymizer,
onebase
(database), AOL Messenger (instant messaging), BigStep
(Web business services), Deja (newsgroups,
just bought by Google), Tripod (chat),
yack,
talkcity,
Yahoo for voice chat, iSyndicate
(free content), allexperts (owned
by about.com), mypoints (opt-in
email), Befree (affiliate programs)
also LinkShare, Coola
(palm
and mobile), Zoomerang (surveys).
hibbs -- how about
all the free on line newspapers? http://www.nytimes.com/,
http://www.londonTimes.com,
http://www.wsj.com,
and thousands more?
Richard Seltzer --
and free personalized news feeds from http://www.individual.com
Richard Seltzer --
What about photo sites? Sites where you can save/post your personal photos
and have folks see them album style?
Richard Seltzer --
Also, speciality content hosting sites like http://www.familytreemaker.com
Do you know of others like that?
Richard Seltzer --
What about sites for broadcasting audio and/or video? I finally have an
uptodate PC with lots of disk space and bells and whistles, and also a
hosting service (thanks to a tip from Bob Zwick) that provides unlimited
disk space and unlimited traffic for $19.95/month (http://www.hispeed.com).
I'm in the mood to experiment...
Tim Again -- Is the
lack of "free" things a problem? We all know 'there aint' no free lunch'
Richard Seltzer --
It's not a major problem. But the "free" always provided you with a way
to learn and experiment before investing in paid software and services;
and also usually a way to participate anonymously.
Free was also always
good a backup -- if your paid (non-advertising) ISP went down, you could
still surf and email with your free services till things went back online.
And if you had DSL or cable access at home, you could use a free access
service to dialup on the road. Lots of useful variations...
hibbs -- you are right
about that Richard!
Bob@CottageMicro.com
-- Tim - Free and trial ware are REQUIRED in today's world. It's a matter
of wether you want to put up with advertising or pay for it when you decide
it will produce results for you.
Richard Seltzer--
Some trials let you go virtually forever without paying (e.g., Winzip).
Others end abruptly after a couple weeks and have all kinds of protections
to keep you from getting and using another copy (like WebTrends).
Tim Again -- Richard
- i think you are confusing the topic by bringing in the idea of not paying
for shareware. That is not free - that is stealing. Using Winzip for the
trial period (even if crippled) is free.
Richard Seltzer --
There's a lot of gray territory. My main interest is services; but often
software companies provide free services as an alternative to buying their
software. e.g., Web Trends charges over $600 for a license for their excellent
Log Analyzer. But they also offer a free version as a service by way of
http://www.webtrendslive.com
Richard Seltzer --All,
we're nearing the end of the hour. This feels like a good topic. I'd like
to glean the links etc. from today's session and send that out by email
(as John Hibbs suggest), as part of an invitation to a second session on
this topic next week. How would you feel about that?
hibbs -- fine with
me. still like to do more experimenting with incorporating audio with the
text chat and page pushing. big need for same, especially if combined with
free goods.
Richard Seltzer --
All -- thanks very much for joining us today. As usual, you can access
the raw transcript of today's session by hitting Close (or coming back
to the URL you entered here with). I'll try to post an edited version soon.
Check http://www.samizdat.com/chat.html.
Please let me know what you think about continuing this topic next week.
All, please post your
email addresses and URLs before leaving, so we can keep in touch.
Tim Again -- lots
of good links today to play with!
hibbs -- hibbs@bfranklin.edu,
http://www.bfranklin.edu
Bob@CottageMicro.com
-- Bob Zwick bob@cottagemicro.com, Home Page http://www.cottagemicro.com,
DE Site http://www.cottagemicro.com/education/,
Teacher Intranet http://e-school.intranets.com,
E-Book site http://www.cottagemicro.com/ebooks
Richard Seltzer --
All -- thanks again, this has been very helpful. Hope you can join us again
next Thursday. If you have followup thoughts, please send them to me by
email seltzer@samizdat.com and
I'll add them to the edited transcript.
From: Allan Sherman Date: 2/21/2001
Thanks for the useful list.
I'd like to nominate http://wwwx.nbci.com/counter/
as an addition to the
"free web site traffic tracking and/or statistical analysis" category.
Sorry I can't join the chat...
Al
From: Arnold Reinhold Date: Feb. 19, 2001
I would add HushMail http://www.hushmail.com
which is a free e-mail
serviced that offers encryption and digital signatures. I think that
sets it apart from the other free e-mail services.
Also deja.com has been taken over by google, who promises to restore
the full database and posting capability, but says it will take a
while.
Best,
Arnold
From: Jim Peters, Date: Feb. 19, 2001
Free URLs - there are two types:
The go.to/yourname type which redirects visitors to
your web site hosted on a commercial server
The flipflop.to/yourname type which redirects visitors
to your web site hosted on your own home computer
Jim
From Jeff Pulver,
Date: Feb. 19, 2001
Richard,
Not sure if you tracked free telephony services but at the bottom of
http://pulver.com/fwd there is
my list of free services.
Jeff
From: Steve Ronan, Date: Feb. 20, 2001
free isp info:
- Steve
Ronan
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