Transcript of the live chat session that took place Thursday, October 5, 2000. These sessions are normally scheduled for 12 noon-1 PM US Eastern Daylight Time (GMT -4) on Thursdays.
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Patrick O'Leary, author
Ron Rothenberg
We'll be starting in about 10 minutes. (Noon Eastern Time). Our guest today is scifi author Patrick O'Leary. As you connect, please introduce yourselves and let us know your interests.
12:00 - Patrick O'Leary
Hello, Richard.
12:01 - Barbara
Hi! I'm Barbara. I'm a sci-fi fan. I read Richard's review of your book, but haven't had a chance to read it. I hope to read it soon.
12:21 - Bob@CottageMicro.Com
Hello, sorry I'm late
12:28 - Ron Rothenberg
hello.
Richard Seltzer
Welcome, Ron. Did you have any trouble finding your way to this new site? And are you a scifi fan?
12:31 - Tdolan001
hi ya Folks - just peeking here. not a current scifi fan.
12:33 - Richard Seltzer (
Welcome. As I mentioned, Patrick's books have a very interesting twist. They are "speculative", questioning "reality" in intriguing ways, rather than following the usual scifi themes. You don't have to be a scifi fan to enjoy them.
Let's get started. I've read Door Number Three and Other Voices. Loved them. I came away with a notion that may or may not be true. My sense was that behind much of what you write there's the notion that human understanding is limited, that the nature of reality and the nature of our mind probably don't match. Is that accurate? If so is that something that you arrived at through imagination or through reading of science?
12:07 - Patrick O"leary
Big Question, Richard. Certainly reality is much more mysterious than was previously thought. I'm not sure I believe it's discord between the mind and reality. I think mind is a part of reality.
12:09 - Richard Seltzer
"Mind is part of reality" -- interesting way to put it. In any case, you might enjoy reading books like What Remains to be Discovered. Increasingly, scientists have been coming to the conclusion that while our minds are well matched for ordinary everyday reality (because of evolution), the realms of the very large, the very small, and the very far away may operate entirely differently and be beyond the ability of our built-in mental concepts to understand.
12:08 - Patrick O"leary
My work examines the assumptions we make, unthinkingly, about what is real. I also try to have fun and tell the truth.
12:10 - Richard Seltzer
In other words, scientists are coming to the conclusion that the assumptions we normally make need to be reexamined, we can't count on them -- just as you indicate in your fiction. Basic stuff, like time, space, life, death, number of dimensions...
12:11 - Richard Seltzer
You do a great job of throwing our assumptions into question, from the situations you put your characters into and the unexpected twists of the story. Can you tell us about some of those assumption-challenging scenes?
12:11 - Patrick O"leary
Yes, I read your review of "What remains..." does sound fascinating.yes, very basic stuff needs to be examined. And I work hard not to take reality for granted--like it is a settled issue. All the latest science I've read suggests it is extremely bizarre.
12:13 - Richard Seltzer
Yes, I find this a new direction in "scifi". But maybe I'm reading too much into this. I think of "usual" scifi as dealing with imaginative extensions of what we know today, aided by creative technological advances. The new direction I see as fiction that questions our basic assumptions, questions the nature and knowability or everyday reality.
I'd contrast this "speculative" assumption-challenging approach to the absurdist writings of the 1950s and the works that grew from that tradition. In that case the assumption was that the world had no order and no meaning, but man needed meaning. So man imposes order on the meaningless world. But now we're looking at a different situation -- there is order, but it's of a nature that our minds simply cannot comprehend.
12:14 - Patrick O"leary
A man in my latest unreleased novel, THE IMPOSSIBLE BIRD, tries to explain that Earth has in fact been invaded by aliens. "Yeah right," the guy says, dismissing the whole concept. And he is told: Think of Apollo Mission. We landed on an alien planet in a spaceship. We were aliens to everything there." or the scene in DOOR NUMBER THREE when Saul Lowe explains that there are infinite pasts but only one future.
12:16 - Richard Seltzer
I loved that line about infinite pasts and only one future. Good stuff.
12:15 - Barbara
I always think things happen for a reason, that there is some sort of plan out there. Do either one of you agree with that, or do you think life is random?
12:18 - Patrick O'Leary
Yes, Barbara, I believe it means something.
12:20 - Patrick O'Leary
About an imbedded order...yes, I think it's there. I think many people have an intuitive grasp of it. but it's nearly impossible to describe or define.
12:22 - Richard Seltzer
I believe that there is order on a human scale that we can understand and deal with, but human scale is just one small piece of the universe. This is one of those shifts of perspective -- like that the Earth revolves around the sun -- that takes a bit of getting used to.
12:29 - Richard Seltzer
Regarding the knowability of the world, you included a quote about William of Occam as the epigraph of one of your stories. Have you read Occam? His main proposition was that God is unknowable. Extend that to say -- the world or nature is fundamentally unknowable and you have a rather modern view.
12:35 - Richard Seltzer
Patrick -- do you read much philosophy? If so, what?
12:22 - Barbara
There are so many strong religious beliefs in this world that name the higher order, but I feel that it can't be pigeonholed that easily. Does that make sense to anyone?
12:36 - Patrick O
I've not read Occom. Only bits. God is unknowable, eh. Damn. Somebody should tell him that. Sort of depends on what you mean by "Knowable" doesn't it? But that's what we're talking about:)
12:43 - Richard Seltzer
Occam was writing around the time of Thomas Aquinas. Aquinas thought that you could prove the existence of God and learn about his nature through logic. He thought that the categories of thought were "real." Occam thought that logic only dealt with the categories of logic and had no necessary connection with the real world (at least that's my layman's interpretation. Occam's approach was called "nominalism". It's strange how those approaches start to make new sense in a world where science is not just making "discoveries" but is at the same time discovering its own limits, the limits of any "knowledge."
12:49 - Patrick O
I'm surprised to hear Occam is about the limits of logic. His razor seems an eminently sensible warning against irrationality.On the other hand what's reason got to do with it? People like N'SYNC.
12:51 - Richard Seltzer
It's funny -- I agree about the limits of understanding, but I strongly disagree with Occam when it comes to the "razor". I see no reason why a simpler solution with fewer assumptions should be more valid than a complex solution. In fact, I think that nature is more inclined to create/evolve Rube Goldberg style -- if something works, by chance, however messy it may be, it will survive. Over time, if other simpler designs evolve by chance, they may win out. But the platypus certainly defies Occam's Razor.
12:52 - Richard Seltzer
I loved your line in "The Maker of Miniatures" -- "a dabbler in physics who regarded Occam's Razor as intellectual cowardice."
12:53 - Tdolan001
Was it heinlein(sp) that told the occam story about "if you hear hoof sounds - think horses not zebras" ?
12:53 - Richard Seltzer
Good line :-)
What about Impossible Bird? Do you have a publisher lined up? If so, when can we expect the book will be released?
Patrick O'Leary
TOR books have had the manuscript to THE IMPOSSIBLE BIRD for several months. No final approval yet.
12:20 - Richard Seltzer
So having a couple very successful books is no guarantee that the next one gets published promptly? By the way, do you have an agent? How did you break in? I gather that you were born in 1952, but it wasn't until 1995, at the age of 43, that your first novel was published. What made the difference? How did you finally get the attention of a major publisher?
12:21- Patrick O'Leary
I have an agent who I got after I sold DOOR NUMBER THREE. I was lucky enough to know David Hartwell at TOR. He had published some of my poetry. I asked him if he wanted to see a novel. And we began to work together. Total fluke.
According to a recent article, Patrick, you have a full time job, are married, and have children. When do you find the time to write?
12:27 - Richard Seltzer
Once you got Door Number Three published, did much change? Did you suddenly become a celebrity in the scifi community? Did you start attending lots of fan events? have you gotten any significant income from your writing? Or is that still something you have to make time for while working a regular job?
12:33 - Tdolan001
Patrick , can i infer that writing is your full time job. Did you use the internet/web to generate ideas?
12:34 - Patrick O
In terms of "success" little or no money. Fan letters. Warm reviews. Respect from peers.It's been a dream come true. But I won't quit my day job in advertising. I find very little time to write. But the reception given my two novels has been a dream come true.
12:37 - Richard Seltzer
"Very little time to write" -- is that actually a creative limitation? Do you believe that you would write more if you had more time? You seem to be a ruminator -- someone who thinks a lot, and sleeps on it a lot before putting words on a page. I gather that it took over 20 years for you to complete The Gift. Do you think that was because of lack of time, or because of your creative style?
12:52 - Patrick O
Yes, I ruminate. Perhaps too much. I've been accused of "overthinking" which I think is underthinking the issue. My job is an advertising copywriter. I get to work with extraordinarily talented people is various creative fields. They inspire me.And the variety of my job fits very neatly with the way I live, bouncing between orbits, into poetry, SF, Mystery, films, music, basketball. It's an ADD reality and I fit right in. Thus, my latest collection OTHER VOICES, OTHER DOORS which is as close to legal drugs as possible. A pleasant trip I hope.
13:01 - Patrick O
National accounts. Yes, I work for Chevy. Most of you have probably seen my work.More I cannot say.
13:02 - Richard Seltzer
Hey, you ought to be able to sign your work :-) I'd think they should be proud to have a renowned author writing their ads. (Maybe you should be the celebrity doing the endorsement).
Patrick, do you watch any of the Sci-Fi shows, like Farscape or Babylon 5?
12:28 - Patrick O'Leary
I watch Star Trek Voyager. Never got into B-5. Farscape I don't know.
12:32 - Richard Seltzer
What are your favorite shows (not just scifi) and your favorite authors? As I mentioned before, I think of the core of your writing relating to the questioning of everyday assumptions in creative ways, which need not necessary lead to stories with a traditional scifi kind of setting. Some of your most interesting stories in Other Voices take place in the everyday world.
12:31 - Barbara
Farscape is a well-written show on Friday nights on the Sci-Fi channel. It's between seasons at the moment. The Sci-Fi channel has just recently started showing Babylon 5 from its beginning. It's on at 7pmEST. I always liked Michael O'Hare as the original commander.
Patrick - I enjoyed reading your 18mo. journal.
12:40 - Patrick O
Thanks for reading my journal, bob. It's on my webpage.PATRICK O'LEARY'S HOMEPAGE: members.aol.com/patri10629/
12:37 - Barbara
Patrick, have we seen any of your advertising work on TV or in magazines?
12:38 - Tdolan001
Patrick - any snippets of your written word available on the web? Another writer is trying to self-publish on the web. some guy named Steve.
12:41 - Barbara
Richard, how did you hear about Patick's book?
12:42 - Patrick O
My lack of time is a challenge.when I do write, I write like mad. It gives the moment a certain emphasis:) I've got some stories of INFINITY PLUS--on online mag. Search and you'll find it.
12:44 - Richard Seltzer
In other words, do you ruminate, work over ideas sometimes for long periods, and then when the pieces come together and the inspiration strikes, you need all the time you can get to put the words on the page and write and rewrite?
12:45 - Bob@CottageMicro.Com
Patrick - what's your day job ?
12:46 - Richard Seltzer
Are there any connections to your day job, writing advertising, and your fiction? Any cross-fertilization? Or is the advertising simply a distraction and an activity that eats up your time?
12:47 - Bob@CottageMicro.Com
Patrick - any of your works published on-line as eBooks or previews
12:49 - Richard Seltzer
Good question -- Yes, Patrick, given that the traditional publishing mechanism is very slow (even when you've been successful) and that it doesn't bring in significant money (at least not yet), are you tempted by Internet-based alternative publishing option?
12:48 - Richard Seltzer
Are you planning to put any significant new material on your Web site? Do you plan to start using it to try to market yourself?
12:55 - Richard Seltzer
Indeed, Other Voices is a "pleasant trip." I was delighted that the publisher sent me an advance review copy. That's how I discovered you. As for advertising, are you writing copy for any national accounts -- companies that we all would have heard of? have you written any ads that we may have seen on television or in print?
12:52 - Barbara
Patrick, do you still live in Michigan. My nephew and his wife live there and work for GM.
12:58 - Patrick O
I still live in Michagan. Doesn't everybody here work for GM? I do:) Yes yes yes--reality is a beautiful mess, with strange contingencies. Sentient slime, Eskimo song, Liberace and Radiohead.But, you know, I'm a thesit. I take it personaly. i think it all means something. But that doesn;t mean I can get my 15-year old to take out the trash or regard his oh so important father as someone he should listen to.
12:55 - Patrick O
I do use my homepage to promote my stuff. There's tons of weirdness there. PATRICK O'LEARY'S HOMEPAGE: http://members.aol.com/patri10629/ My second novel THE GIFT (about the last magic makers on earth) is available as an ebook download.
12:56 - Richard Seltzer
Where can we go to get The Gift as an ebook download?
63) 13:03 - Patrick O
Amazon will let you download THE GIFT as an ebook I think. Thanks Richard and all. Sorry for the hangups. Take care.
13:01 - Richard Seltzer
Patrick, by the way, are you planning to attend any scifi fan events in the Boston area anytime soon?
13:07 - Patrick O
Re: Boston cons. I'll be at READERCON next year. I usually am.Thanks again all. And let me know what you think of THE GIFT,
Richard. Peace.
All -- we're getting near the end of the hour. Thanks for joining us. As usual, I'll post an edited version of this transcript in a few days. But with this new site, you can come back here any time and see the unedited transcript. Just click on Close to get to the page where that link appears. Please, before you disconnect, post here your email address and URL so we can keep in touch.
13:00 - Richard Seltzer
Patrick, thanks very very much for joining us today.
12:59 - Richard Seltzer
To see the edited transcripts etc. go to www.samizdat.com/chat.html and send me email at seltzer@samizdat.com with your followup comments and questions and suggestions.
12:59 - Barbara
Bye.
13:00 - Patrick O
besides being a "thesit" I am also a theist--which is harder.
58) 13:01 - Tdolan001
cu all.
13:03 - Richard Seltzer
All, it's time to go. Thanks again. Hope to "see" you next week.
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