Transcript of the live chat session that took place Thursday, June 22, 2000. These sessions are normally scheduled for 12 noon-1 PM US Eastern Daylight Time (GMT -4) every Thursday.
To connect to the chat room, go to www.samizdat.com/chat-intro.html
Since the chat itself happens at a rapid pace, it's often difficult to note interesting facts and URLs as they appear live. Here's a place to take a more leisurely look. I've rearranged some of the pieces to try to capture the various threads of discussion (which sometimes get lost in the rush of live chat).
Please send email with your follow-on questions and comments, and suggestions for topics we should focus on in future sessions. So long as the volume of email responses is manageable, I'll post the most pertinent ones here for all to see.
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Richard Seltzer -- It's time to start. All, please introduce yourselves as you connect. That will help us get off to a fast start.
Jeff VanderMeer -- Richard--I'm here. I assume the other Jeff will be along shortly.
Jeff Edmunds -- Richard--Jeff Edmunds here, ready when you are.
Kelly & Maureen Rothenberg -- My name is Kelly Rothenberg and I'm a writer in Georgia.
Jeff Edmunds -- Hi Kelly. Welcome.
Richard Seltzer -- Welcome, Kelly. Are you related to Ron Rothenberg? And what kind of writing do you do? Fiction? Have you had a chance to read Metro yet?
Ron Rothenberg -- My name is Ron Rothenberg (no relation to Kelly, as far as I know ) and I'm a software developer in Belmont, MA
Richard Seltzer -- Welcome, Ron. This looks like a day of coincidence. We have two Jeffs and two Rothenbergs. To make it perfect, we need a Jeff Rothenberg :-)
Kelly & Maureen Rothenberg -- No, I'm not related :) *asically I write horro and book reviews and stuff. I didn't read Metro yet but I wil. I'm about an 1.5 hrs from Jeff, whp I know
Ann -- Hi, I am Ann Kennedy from Buzzcity Press
Richard Seltzer -- Welcome, Ann Kennedy. Where is Buzzcity Press located and what kinds of books do you publish?
Ann -- Buzzcity Press is located in Tallahasse, Fl and published Jeff VanderMeer's Dradin, In Love.
Joe Nigg -- Hello, Jeff VDM.
Received your e-mail notice of this chat -
and your postcard from Wales. Clever of the two interviewees
to have the same first name. Opposite of a Russian novel in
which a single character is referred to by multiple names.
Can't stay long, but wanted to support Minist
Richard Seltzer -- Welcome, Joe. Are you an author? A publisher? Where are you located? Have you read Metro?
Joe Nigg -- Hello, Richard. I'm
a Denver writer who became involved with
Ministry back in 1995, when Jeff V accepted a story of mine
for Leviathan I, and we've supported each other's work ever
since. He generously devoted a section of the Ministry Web
site (BeastTour) to my fabulous-animal books and wrote a
great review of the latest, "The Book of Fabulous Beasts."
Have not yet read Metro, but will now, after learning more
about it. Publishing it on the Web is an exciting venture
for Ministry. Best to publisher and
Richard Seltzer -- Joe -- Do you have your own Web site and publish your own work there as well? If so, what's the URL. If not, why not :-)
Kevinpars -- I'm a friend of Jeff's and I must confess that I have read more of his work via the web than from the copies I have in the house. It is a great way to reach people - at least for short works.
Richard Seltzer -- Welcome, Eric, Mike Levey and others. Please introduce yourselves, let us know your interests and dive in.
Eric -- I've known Jeff V for some years now. Been interested in both his fiction and the work he has put out as an editor.
Jeff VanderMeer -- Basically, I'm the Ministry of Whimsy right now, with assistance from Ann Kennedy of Buzzcity Press. We are distributed by Ingram's, the largest distributor in the country, but we also use BBR Distribution in the U.K. and we have a number of smaller distributors in the U.S.
Richard Seltzer -- Jeff V., you publish excellent books. But it must be difficult to reach a wide audience. What's the most copies you've sold of any of your titles to date? And to see ways to use the Internet and electronic distribution to expand your audience?
Jeff VanderMeer -- 4,000 copies of Troika were sold. But usually we sell around 1,000 copies. As for using the Internet, we use it in a sense in that Amazon sells our books quite aggressively. And, of course, we've gotten into electronic book publishing with Metro. We also sell books through our website. Right now, we sell approximately $200-worth of books through our website per month, so it's not really a big source of revenue at the moment. We're always torn between making the website a source for selling our books and a source for stories, information, etc., about fabulist literature.
Richard Seltzer -- Jeff V. -- that's about the volume I'd expect with a small publisher. (The best I've done is about 7000 with my fantasy The Lizard of Oz -- over the course of 25 years :-( So how do you finance your operation? You must have a "real" job to survive. And you probably need some financial backing to publish these excellent books and let the world know about them.
Jeff VanderMeer -- As for our future plans-they're more artistic than business oriented though there definitely has to be a business component. Basically, I think the internet is criminally mis-used in terms of the meta-fiction possibilities inherent in the format. Although I think in the future we will need to make downloads of our electronic books available, we would like to continue to experiment with books made available directly through the internet. The other challenge is how to structure payment for viewing novels on the internet. We might decide, when we actually charge for reading something, to put up a book of poems or something shorter than a novel-at least until technology allows better viewing on a monitor. One thing we are committed to in electronic publishing : to replicate the experience of reading a book as much as possible.
Eric -- One thing I have always really liked about the Ministry projects was the beauty of the final version. This applies to both the books and the the Web site.
Richard Seltzer -- Jeff V. -- Have you signed up for the Amazon Advantage program? That's sales of books on consignment at Amazon.com. They take a 55% cut, but you get listed in their catalog, which many libraries and bookstores use these days instead of Books in Print. I sell books on plain ordinary computer diskette through them, and get $100-$200 per month. No big deal, but access to a new set of readers.
Also, Considering your usual volume of sales, and your unintentional non-profit mode of operation (typical for small press), I would suggest not limiting your audience by putting up security barriers and payment schemes. I believe that your main objective on the Web should be to reach as many people as possible, to help build the visibility and reputations of your authors and of your publishing company.
Jeff VanderMeer -- We're aware of the Advantage program-we utilized it for Troika. But for the smaller print runs, we prefer direct mail. So although we are part of the Advantage program (my former partner at the Ministry actually set it up so I'm hazy on the details), we don't really push that as much as direct mail-at the moment. Unless we know we have the money to put into another print run, we have to try to get as much of the cover price as possible.
Those are our main objectives, but we're not interested in limiting our options either.
Jeff VanderMeer -- Generally in these types of interviews, this question comes up and the interview session tends to focus on self-improvement for the small press. I think most of us are aware of the possibilities for linkage, the opportunities available through the internet, etc. If we don't always follow up on these opportunities it is due to a lack of resources-either time, manpower, or money. Also, to an extent, we are in competition with one another. There is only so much cooperation that will work between independent presses. There have at times been co-op systems that have worked for short periods of time. Basically, I just need more time and more money. This, however, makes the whole experience seem negative when it's not. Ministry, for example, enjoys a reputation for excellence and a reputation for producing books that look as good as or better than the major presses. Where we differ with the major presses, and why it is also possible that even better distribution, etc., would not enhance sales by that much is that we publish very unconventional material.
Richard Seltzer -- Jeff V. -- Yes, I don't want the conversation to devolve to a discussion of small press politics and processes. (I had a lot of fun going to small press book fairs in Boston, New York, and Philadelphia, back in the mid-1970s). But there a few basic principles of how the Web works that could help you get more Web traffic and perhaps sell a few more books. If you post the full text of your books in plain static html form and submit each of those pages to Altavista and other search engines, you'll be found by people who never knew that you existed. (There are lots of articles about the details of that at my site www.samizdat.com)
Jeff VanderMeer -- If you mean the full text of our printed books…ah…*no*. That would undercut sales of the hardcopy versions. We may not make much of a profit, but this is still a business. I'd be happy to get additional information from you on any of this after the interview. Unless you feel a review of these basic principles is of use as part of the interview.
Richard Seltzer -- Jeff V. -- I'd contend that making the full text available on the Web would increase sales of the printed version. I believe that that is the power of the Web. (Ideally, I'd want to read a book in print and go to a Web site to interact with the author and other readers, in a hyperlinked environment.)
Kevinpars -- Publishing online sections of books can be a great advertising tool. You can read a chapter or 2 for free on the web and it could catch your imagination and you want to buy it. If it is all there and you are comfortable with reading online or can print it - why buy it? The writer may get more readers, but it doesn't do anything for the publisher.
Jeff VanderMeer -- "I'd contend that making the full text available on the Web would increase sales of the printed version. I believe that that is the power of the Web." It's an interesting argument, Richard, but I don't see the major publishers rushing to put full versions of all their books on websites in order to increase sales of the hard copy versions.
Ron Rothenberg -- it is also costly for the user to print out each page on a laser or inkjet printer -- 2000 page book can cost over $40 for ink and paper.
Richard Seltzer -- Ron -- Yes, very few people would print out the full text of a novel on their local printer, if they had any alternative. I certainly wouldn't -- it's far too slow and costly. Basically, the only folks today who read complete books on the Web are the blind, who use voice to text converters. (And when you use a bizarre, non-standard format, they can't do that.)
Jeff VanderMeer -- Well, to respond to Richard, one of the Ministry's latest projects, conducted by our Minister of Special Ops, is to conduct a series of mass blindings with a sharp long stick in various public places, like malls, in order to increase our readership on the web. :-)
Richard Seltzer -- Jeff V. -- There's been some interesting discussion of the value of making full text available in the ebooks email discussion group. I've seen numbers thrown around on the order of a 30% boost in print sales from making books available for free on the Web. Of course, this probably differs according to the kind of book and the target audience. In any case, you can see the full text of all my works at my Web site, and I've benefitted greatly from the people who find those texts on the Web. (I now get an average of 80,000 to 90,000 page views at my site, with no advertising, no graphics; this is a site that I run on free Web space in my non-existent "free time.)
Jeff VanderMeer -- Richard, it really depends on your view of what a book is. To me, a book is something that is not just the text but the way the text is presented. The layout and design are extremely important. I'm not really that interested in doing anything that compromises those elements. But I'm not refuting your argument that it may boost book sales. It depends on what you're willing to sacrifice for book sales.
Jeff Edmunds -- I have to agree with Jeff V.: book design, the physicality of the thing is extremely important to me. I loathe ugly, poorly printed books, even when the text itself happens to be brilliant.
Jeff Edmunds -- Richard-regarding your question about on demand texts. Yes, I've looked into it a wee bit, but I remain ignorant of the details. If I could one off (or two off, etc.) copies of METRO of the quality I'm accustomed to (compare for example the excellent quality of the Ministry's print offerings), I would love to do that, because I agree that people remain fascinated with books and that ebooks have a long long loooong way to go before they're as popular.
Jeff VanderMeer -- Print on demand is certainly an option. Many print on demand programs wrest a certain amount of control from the publisher. The quality of the print on demand books I've seen has been rather mediocre as well. It is certainly an option and that is another direction that the Ministry has considered. We're waiting for the terms to improve somewhat before we go in that direction.
Jeff Edmunds -- Richard--I tried to find Stop Time in my local public library on Tuesday, without success. they had two other Conroy novels, but not ST. But the academic library where I work apparently owns a copy, which I hope to take a look at this afternoon.
Richard Seltzer -- Jeff E. -- have you seen any benefit yet from making Metro available for free on the Internet? Do you know how many people have taken a look? Have you gotten useful feedback? Do you intend to make any of your other writings available this way?
Jeff Edmunds -- The obvious advantage of making one's work available on the Web is, of course, the huge potential audience. I have no statistics yet on how many people have viewed/read it, by I'm considering adding a counter at some point. The feedback has been generally positive so far, with some constructive negative criticism from folks who dislike reading texts online.
Richard Seltzer -- Jeff E. -- I printed out a copy and read it on paper. Thanks very much for sending me the Word file. In general, it is difficult to read a lengthy text on a computer screen. In particular, your book is so good, and has so much interesting complexity that I felt compelled to scribble all over it, which one can't do with a computer screen. You might get more "online" readers if you made it easy to print the full text in one command from the Web page.
Jeff Edmunds -- Richard--I understand your preference for paper, especially for a text like METRO. The decision to *not* make it available for easy download was a calculated one--part of the experiment was to see how people would respond to having to read the entire novel online.
Richard Seltzer -- Jeff E. -- Did you consider including hyperlinks in the text of Metro? It looks like that would be tempting, where one scene hearkens back or forward to another scene in bizarre fashion.
Jeff Edmunds -- Richard--excellent question re hyperlinks. METRO was conceived and written before the Web existed, and the text is itself inherently hypertextual. Links were tempted, but I resorted to only one. Part of the idea behind the book design was to purposely mimic a book and wilfully (and somewhat perversely perhaps) ignore many web functionalities.
Richard Seltzer -- Jeff E. -- I could see the book existing in two modes: print and Web-based pseudo-print, where it remains constant and without links; and Web-based with two kinds of links -- ones created by the author to highlight internal relationships and echoes (and perhaps external too -- footnote style, or even linking to entire other books) and ones which take the reader to the comments and reactions of other readers -- in other words have an online marked up text, with lots of dialogue recorded and shared. If the comments are useful, eventually maybe you revise the original text, or expand/extend it...
Jeff Edmunds -- Richard, the scenario you describe is an extremely seducative one, and resonates with what Jeff V. said earlier about the "underuse" of the Web as a forum for experimental fiction. As a writer, I was uncomfortable with "webbing" METRO because I think it would have completely changed the nature of the text itself. But as the Web matures, and as writers become more accustomed to thinking in terms of hypertext, interactivity, and (gulp) collaboration, the possibilities become very intriguing indeed.
Mike Levy -- Hi, it's Mike Levy. Hello to everyone. I always feel awkward just jumping into these chat room conversations, but, concerning, Jeff E.'s Metro, although I really enjoyed the first part of it, I found the electronic aspects a real problem. Maybe my computer wasn't fast enough, but it always seemed like it took an age for the pages to turn and by then I'd lost the thread of the story
Richard Seltzer -- Mike -- I also had trouble reading the text online. With my screen/browser, I was losing the last line of each page. Fortunately, Jeff E. send me the Word file and I was able to print it out, which allowed me to fully enjoy and appreciate the text. I strongly suggest making the text available in a simple, easy to download and easy to print form.
Jeff VanderMeer -- Re Mike's concern-it's really very valid and the reason we will be trying to provide a downloadable version of the novel at some point in the future. I think one thing we have discovered with Metro is that the technology will not support long periods of reading via computer monitor. However, to answer a previous question, we have had over 1,000 individuals access the novel. It is difficult to tell how many of them actually read the whole thing through. I think you might find between 15 and 20 percent read it in its entirety, but I might be a little optimistic there.
Kelly & Maureen Rothenberg -- Librarians will tell you that folks print material out if they want to read it. I do it myself.
Ron Rothenberg -- studies show that people understand material better if it's on paper. Type on paper is a form that has persisted for a long time, with great success and popularity.
Eric -- I also tend to print out the material that I read off the net. I think that in the future with monitors that more closely approximate the white page, that won't be necessary.
Jeff Edmunds (Home Page) -- All: I'd like to ask those of you who haven't looked at METRO to take a peek (just click on "(Home Page)" after my name) and send me your reactions, positive or negative. I remain curious about people's reactions to the text and the design.
Mike Levy -- Jeff E. Physically the layout of Metro is readable and quite attractive. It just can't replace the speed and comfort of reading the real thing. This may be less of a problem with a book that is set up more aggressively as hypertext, though, where by the very nature of the beast, you expect to read relatively small segments, break away to a new link, and read something else. I expect reading, say Ryman's 253 on the web would be less of a problem, although I've only read it in paper.
Eric -- Thomas Disch made a typically dour prediction in a recent book that he felt the traditional novel was finished. He expected that everything would move in the direction of multimedia interactive experiences. How do people feel about this who have been working with Web based fiction projects?
Richard Seltzer -- Eric -- yes, I like the look and feel of Ministry of Whimsy books, as well as the content. But I'm inclined to think that a work of fiction needs to exist in two forms (as mentioned in my earlier posting). There's the "finished" work, and then there's a version of the same work which is alive and changing and open to comment and question and suggestions from all. But, of course, it is not easy to get people to immerse themselves and spend the time to make truly useful and creative comments.
Jeff Edmunds -- To follow up on Kelly's observation about people printing out Web stuff to read it, and Richard's statement about basic principles of the Web. As an artist, I tend to be rather perverse and I enjoy undermining people's expectations and habits. This, of course, runs almost counter to business, which is to give consumers what they want. I purposely designed METRO so that people *couldn't* print it out. As someone with Welsh blood, I love trees too much to see them wasted! And whereas Richard's statements about straight HTML are convincing in some respects, I'm too much of a visual person not to be tempted by the visual aspects of the Web. Still, the design of METRO, I think people will concede, is extremely minimal compared to what is possible.
Kelly & Maureen Rothenberg -- Kelly here: when I was looking after something to publish my book, I finally went with iUniverse.com because it is a real physical book (among other things) and not an ebook. The tech is neat, but I think a physcal book is more "readable" so to speak and still be around for awhile.
Jeff VanderMeer -- Here's actually the dilemma Ministry faces. To be honest, I don't like the idea of electronic books at all, but we also don't feel we can afford to not at least explore the idea. I love the look and feel of Jeff's book and I wish we had enough staff to publish it in hardcopy form. I'm at heart very anti-electronic book. But that won't stop us from exploring the options. The book as artifact is very dear to me.
Jeff Edmunds -- Like Jeff V., I'd love to see METRO in print. In fact, I would greatly prefer it to the online version, in some respects. Those of you who would like to contribute a portion of your next paychecks to the Let The Ministry Publish METRO On Paper Fund, please contact Jeffs V. or E. off line.
Jeff VanderMeer -- "There's the "finished" work, and then there's a version of the same work which is alive and changing and open to comment and question and suggestions from all." Your comment, Richard, actually addresses another of my concerns about electronic books. I personally believe the reader has no right to expect any input into the text. What you're buying is the writer's imagination, which must not be tampered with. Thus, the idea of getting to the point where the reader can easily tamper with a finished work of art is horrifying to me. After all, you wouldn't let someone in art gallery change a piece of artwork to fit their vision.
Mike Levy -- Concerning the idea of a book having two texts, one finished and one constantly changing, didn't Bantam try that, or consider trying it, in print, with Delany's Dahlgren. There were supposed to be periodic updates to the text as he refined it. Don't know if they ever actually tried it though.
Richard Seltzer -- Mike Levy -- I hadn't heard of that Bantam experiment, but I suspect that the problem was that they were dealing with print -- and all the associated costs and delays. On the Web, things can change in real time, which makes the conversation far more engaging.
Eric -- To Mike L. Regarding Delany, he is notorious for constantly revising his texts, so new editions tend to get changes incorporated. But I don't think this is a desire of the publisher.
Jeff Edmunds -- As a writer, I am made uneasy by the idea of collaborative work. Every piece of work I've ever seen that was a collaborative effort has been less tight, less polished, and less focussed that solo efforts. In music, on the other hand, exactly the opposite seems to be true.
Jeff VanderMeer -- Jeff E-How do you feel about interactions with readers and a continually updated text?
Jeff Edmunds -- To respond to Jeff V's question about interactions with readers: I am not opposed to this philosophically, but it is a completely different type of work than the solo writer composing in relative solitude. Given the speed of current technologies, more and more writers are "responding" to reactions to their work in subsequent work. The Web has the potential to speed things up a great deal.
Eric -- Jeff E.--The idea of a truly interactive novel on the web with extensive links, artwork, and razzle dazzle, is probably going to have to involve multiple contributers. It becomes something like a small movie. One would tend to lose the individuality of the creator.
Jeff Edmunds -- Eric--agreed. The artist's individuality is threatened, and in our ego-centric society, this would likely be seen as not necessarily a good thing by many people.
Richard Seltzer -- Jeff E. -- I see the writer maintaining control over the "final" version of the work, deciding if and when to make changes to that version. And at the same time, I imagine an online version with alots of hyperlinked dialogue, even with opportunities for readers to try out their own variants and get feedback -- a world in which there is both creative responsibility for finished products and anarchic free discussion and collaboration. Okay, I'm a bit of a utopian. But I think the main barrier to that kind of thing is habit and limitations of time. I believe the principle is sound.
Jeff Edmunds -- Richard, agreed, the principle is sound, and I agree that a writer should have final control of the text if it is to be seen as a coherent whole. My experience with the Web has been that the signal to noise ratio is 999999 to 1, and it would be up to the writer to edit the drivel.
Richard Seltzer -- Jeff V. -- I agree entirely regarding the value of the artifact. (In particular, I like the design of your Punktown). But realistically, you have limited funds, so not all of your books can be produced that way. It would make sense to make full text available on the Web (and have those fully indexed by search engines), to make all those works available in print-on-demand (with reasonably fast turnaround), and those books that build an audience from those means eventually appear in well-designed print form.
Jeff VanderMeer -- Richard: that's an excellent suggestion for our non-hardcopy books; I prefer it to print on demand.
Mike Levy -- Collaborative fiction of this sort (readers making changes) might be good fun--note Naked Came the Stranger or, more recently, Naked Came the Manatee--but I'm not at all convinced it would be art.
Jeff Edmunds -- I agree with Mike. Art is very unlikely to result from loosely structured collaborative efforts, which usually end up something like playing Twister naked with fluorescent body oils under a black light.
Jeff Edmunds -- Consider it mentioned: www.libraries.psu.edu/iasweb/nabokov/nsintro.htm
Richard Seltzer -- Jeff E. -- Of all of Nabokov's works the one that Metro called to mind was Invitation to a Beheading, where the author seemed to delight in frustrating the reader's expectations.
It's easy to imagine Nabokov himself delighting in the potential of the Web, both for hyperlinked connections and for dialogue that amounts to footnotes on footnotes a la Pale Fire and his footnote-heavy translation of Eugene Onegin. He'd love this stuff...
Jeff Edmunds -- Richard, I'm rereading ITAB now (in Russian) and am reminded that it is perhaps N's most underrated book (amongst the general public).
Jeff VanderMeer -- Nabokov's most underrated book is Edmunds translation of The Eyes of Laura.
Richard Seltzer -- Jeff E. -- I also play a bit with Russian, though I must admit that I've never read any of Nabokov's early books in the original. (My translation Ethiopia Through Russian Eyes was just published by Red Sea Press, and is available in toto at my Web site.)
Jeff Edmunds -- For N aficiandos: www.libraries.psu.edu/iasweb/nabokov/desomm.htm
Richard Seltzer -- Jeff Thomas will be joining us for our chat session on July 13 to talk about Punktown. Also, fyi, you can see my review of that excellent book at www.samizdat.com/isyn/punktown.html
Jeff VanderMeer -- I can definitely return.
Jeff Edmunds -- Richard, I can be here next Thursday, I think, but I wouldn't want to take time away from the Jeffrey the Third, i.e. Jeffrey Thomas, and the Punktown discussion. I'll let you and Jeff V. work things out for next week. Thanks Richard for having me, Jeff V. for all your efforts on behalf of METRO, and everyone else for stopping by. Ciao for now.
Richard Seltzer -- Jeff E. -- Jeff Thomas (the third Jeff musketeer) will be on July 13. So we wouldn't be taking time from him. Please join us if you can. This has been a very interesting dialogue that I'd like to continue.
Jeff Edmunds -- Richard, will do. I'll plan to be here next Thursday. Thanks for the invite.
Richard Seltzer -- All -- as usual, I'll post an edited transcript of this session in a few days. Check www.samizdat.com/chat.html And I'll plan on next week being a continuation of today's topic. Please spread the word. Thanks very much for joining us. If you have followup comments that you'd like included with the transcript, please send me email at seltzer@samizdat.com
The full text of the novel Metro book is available online for free at www.mindspring.com/~toones/ministry.html.
See my review at www.samizdat.com/isyn/metro.html
Previous transcripts and schedule of upcoming chats -- www.samizdat.com/chat.html
To connect to the chat room, go to www.samizdat.com/chat-intro.html
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