This is the transcript of a live chat session that took place Monday, August 19, 1996, 10:30 PM on America Online, for which I was the guest host. (For more info on these weekly sessions, contact PCRobin@aol.com.) I've edited the raw transcript to make the threads of discussion more clear. If you have reactions/followup discussion that you would like to add, please send me email. Richard Seltzer seltzer@samizdat.com
This is the log of the PC DWP Forum's "Web Page Design & Search Tips" chat on Monday, August 19th, 1996 featuring guest host Richard Seltzer. Richard offers several tips about how to design a winning web page without overdoing it on the graphic and multimedia elements. He also shares some insider ideas on how to make your page more searchable and how to get it up closer to the top in search results of popular search engines such as AltaVista. Using hisown page as an example, Richard demonstrates how a web page can be created cheaply and by virtually anyone.
Richard Seltzer: I'm at http://www.samizdat.com -- hundreds of pages of content (some of which are books)
Pam Bytes: I have two sites really. One for business one for fun. For fun I do free web graphics. http://www.tgn.net/~pambytes I sell web design. I get most business from my local area. Site is basically a portfolio.
PC Robin: We're talking with our guest (Richard Seltzer) Richard Seltzer about Web Page design and such. If there are any questions, ask away!
PCC Joel: Scott knows everything about computers and I teach courses in our Web University...:)
PC Robin: Richard.. the folks you see with PC/PCC names are AOL staffers who help run the DWP forum.
Richard Seltzer: Pam, I'm basically skeptical of the value of graphics at a Web site. I push text/content.
PC Robin: Richard.. I'm with you. I could scream when I see a huge imagemap start to load :)
Pam Bytes: Richard, you are not alone:) But I think that they add a much needed visual apeal.
PCC Adams: What adds a "much needed visual appeal"?
Pam Bytes: We and our kids have grown up with TV, not books, sadly, and graphics are needed these days.
Richard Seltzer: Pam -- In magazines, on TV, yes for graphics. But Internet, with a modem, it's a nuisance. I figure on the Net a picture needs to be worth 10,000 words, not just 1000.
Killerbarb: So what design tips do you have for us?
PCC Adams: Let me guess, GIFs for buttons?
Richard Seltzer: PCC Adams -- I basically don't find visuals at all appealing. They get in the way.
PC Robin: Richard.. before we really dive into design.. can you give us some quick info on your background?
PCC Adams: The other consideration is that the typical font for a web browser leaves much to be desired
PCC Scott: Rich, I agree, Graphisc are WAY over used, but they do have value
PCC Adams: Richard, I agree actually.
Pam Bytes: I do a lot more than GIFs for buttons.
PCC Adams: I feel that one (1) web pages *must* be designed so that they're usable with Lynx (that's a text mode browser, often used by the blind) Another issue is that the internet isn't designed to handle transferring lots of small files efficiently.
Pam Bytes: For now the modem is a hinderance. I don't think it will always be there. And as long as I am concerned for those that prefer text, turning off graphics or whatever, and make my sites readable by them, I go for it. Within reason:)
Richard Seltzer: Pictures have to say something, have to be more than decoration. Often they aren't today. When bandwidth improves, graphics and multimedia will take off. Unfortunately many people today presume you need graphics to have a successful site. That isn't true. But the assumption leads people to spending far more than necessary. And without any real benefit.
JamesOde: I own Pagemaker 6.0 for Windows, and Corel 6. When I create graphics with Corel, I can not ...
Pam Bytes: Why is decoration bad? We have been decorating since we were in caves. I don't think we will change that now.
PCC Joel: Graphics do help to attract and point attention...text alone tends to be dull.
PC Robin: <-- Thinks that graphics can be used to make or illustrate a point. But so often they just slow down a page and get between me and the info I need :).
Richard Seltzer: Yes, another way to look at it -- people are used to graphics being important for magazines. People expect cover design to attract readers. But it's a different ballgame on the Net. On the Net, you've already decided to go to a site when you see the graphics.
PCC Scott: But the whole PURPOSE of the WEB was to allow graphics
Richard Seltzer: Scott -- Not really, the purpose was to make it easy to navigate from one document to another. Graphics attracted mobs -- rather seeing demos with graphics; and point and click. But the purpose was mainly text, and that's what it really does best today.
PCC Scott: Richard, As I understand it CERN developed to WEB to share graphical academic materials. Otherwise USENET and FTP could suffice
Richard Seltzer: Scott -- USENET and ftp do not link documents together -- that is what the Web does
Richard Seltzer: Scott -- If a picture really says something -- 10,000 words worth -- great. But many Webmasters act as if content were irrelevant and gimmicks and graphics all.
Pam Bytes: Does there really have to be such a division between graphics/no graphics? If you don't want them, turn them off. There seems to be no compromise.
PCC Joel: Graphics are really a side issue...the key question is how to get folks to your site for that first 5 seconds. :)
Pam Bytes: This is one of the hottest issues debated to no end on every newsgroup and mailing list I have been on.
Richard Seltzer: Pam -- my point is that many people could accomplish what they want at much less cost. The problem is that they presume the graphics are essential for their own sake
Richard Seltzer: Joel -- Graphics won't get them there at all. Today, in most cases they are searching using search engines like AltaVista which index and search only text. That's where I get most of my traffic.
PCC Joel: That's what I mean...it's more important to get folks there than worry about the graphics. You have to give folks what they think they are going to find.
PCC Marge: And if the graphics take to long to load, they'll never see the information - they'll leave before it shows up
Pam Bytes: I think that the purpose of a site has a lot to do with what graphics are used. A lawyer may not need much. A car dealer may.
Richard Seltzer: Pam -- I agree that there are cases where graphics can be important = more than 10,000 words. My point is that those occasions are far more rare than most people presume.
PC Robin: Richard, do you have any tips to help folks who want to make their pages as searchable as possible?
PCC Scott: Richard Seltzer, So what text do you put in and how so that the search engines catch the page?
Richard Seltzer: Robin/Scott -- Put the most important words in your HTML title and the first few lines. Also, clearly state what you are about -- think about the ways people might want to look for what you have to offer and make sure those words and phrases appear.
WillAdams: One thing I'm going to do on the web pages I'm designing is put some text for keyword search in the background color at the top of each page. The other thing I'm doing now is designing a full-color catalog with the full-knowledge it'll also be a web pageand trying to accomodate the limitations of the web in my design concept.
Richard Seltzer: WillAdams -- Personally, I find background color a nuisance, just makes the page hard to read.
WillAdams: The back ground color is white. and text is black. I quite agree.
PCC Marge: But Will, why? Why limit your PRINT design because of web limitations?
WillAdams: Because I want the whole thing to be of a piece.
Richard Seltzer: WillAdams -- Background is just a nuisance to me as a user.
PCC Joel: Let's not forget that an attractive design helps to give a more profession appearance. Dull gray pages "look" amateurish.
Richard Seltzer: Marge -- When I think of the Web I don't think of PRINT at all. I think of content. Many folks just try to mimic on-line what they did in print before, that that can be a waste. One strength of the Web is that the user can control the look and feel. Let the user do that. Don't try to circumvent it.
PCC Marge: But most designers DO think of print, not content. They worry more about how it looks than what information is there
Pam Bytes: Will, unless I am mistaken "hidden text" is not hidden to Lynx users. It has also been very visable and ugly on AOL's browser or any browser that doesn't support background color.
WillAdams: Pam, good point - I'll be sure to tag it as "Keywords:"
PCC Marge: Will, the only consistent element can be the graphics - users can change almost anything else on their end, and you'll never know
Richard Seltzer: WillAdams -- If you want to enter words that you want to be found by but that you don't want to appear on the screen to the user, with AltaVista you can enter "META" tags. Check the online help for how to do it.
WillAdams: Meta tags - nifty tip! Will other search engines be supporting this?
Richard Seltzer: I know that AltaVista uses META tags -- to let you enter key words and also the descriptor you would like to appear for your page when it comes up on the list of results. I suspect that others will follow suit.
Pam Bytes: So, Richard, do you not specify any colors, text, background, etc?
Richard Seltzer: I guess I tend to be a bit ornery -- I've been conditioned to love plain text because I keep getting praise that my site is "easy to use" and "heavy on content" and I do that very simply and cheaply.
PCC Scott: Rich, Can you give us a URL that exemplifies what you think is good design?
Richard Seltzer: Scott -- Bascially, I don't think "design". I only think content. If it's easy to read and use and there's good stuff there, I value the site.
Take a look at my own http://www.samizdat.com/ I do it on free Web space I get with my PPP account. I'm limited to 10 Mbytes. And because I use no graphics, I can fill that with several hundred pages, some of which are entire books. And I can do everything quickly and easily myself using Microsoft's Internet Assistant, which is a free enhancement for Word.
Last Sept. Net Guide Magazine named it one of the top 50 sites in the World. And this last January Internet World Magazine called it the best personal home page of 1995.
Again, my point is that anyone can do this. And do it very cheaply. You don't have to spend tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of dollars to build a very useful Web site that meets your business needs -- you can do it for practically nothing if you don't get hung up on graphics.
Pam Bytes: Richard, it looks like a text book. There is a lot of content in a text book but I am not going to read it for fun or sell anything out of one.
Richard Seltzer: Pam -- The usefulness all depends on what you are trying to sell and who you are trying to attract. I'm trying to reach 1) teachers, 2) the blind, 3)people who love to read.
Pam Bytes: I think you may do a business site for next to nothing but if you are selling, it may be hard. Then again, for your intended audience, it's perfect:)
PCC Marge: Pam, if you're just getting out technical information, text is fine. If you're trying to sell consumer type goods, you'll need graphics
Richard Seltzer: Marge -- It all depends on the goods. And once again, there's a difference between decoration and pictures that really say something. I see very few instances on the Web today of pictures that say something. Mostly I see useless decoration that is a nuisance.
WillAdams: I'd like to note that it's very, very hard to design a good textbook and laudMr. Seltzer for his achievement.
PC Robin: One thing I really like to see, even for sites that need to be very graphical, is an alternate text branch to make it accessible to folks who can't see or navigate graphical pages.
Pam Bytes: I agree, that if I am only looking for information I would rather go to a site like his instead of a site like mine:) But then I sell graphics and design. I have to LOOK good.
PCC Joel: I prefer smaller more focused designs that allow folks to get to the exact spot they want right away. :)
Richard Seltzer: Pam -- I think we basically agree -- I'm just trying to emphasize the point that many people start with unnecessary assumptions that add a lot of cost without adding value. Anybody who analyzes his/her business and the needs of the target audience and designs accordingly is likely to win. And those who just mimick their old brochures and print ads will lose.
Pam Bytes: I don't think we really disagree at all:)
PCC Marge: Definitely! You CANNOT simply try to put your print stuff on the web - that definitely doesn't work. But sometimes, that 'useless decoration' sets the tone for the whole site - with small graphics that are carried throughout as navigational icons
Richard Seltzer: Marge -- graphical navigational icons are one of the worst offenders. A hyperized word can do the same thing much better and easier.
Lune E tun: well if the useless decoration was intended to be a nuisance then it's efective I prefer mindless sites with lots of useless graphics, music and animation.
Pam Bytes: He likes big graphics that move and talk/sing:)
PC Robin: Actually I have to admit, I just went to McAfee's web page with Microsoft's IE 3.0 and almost fell out of my chair when their RealAudio kicked in and I got music in the background
Richard Seltzer: Robin -- I love RealAudio too. I'd like to do some fiction that way like old time radio.
PC Robin: Richard, that'd be fun!
Richard Seltzer: Lune -- Sounds like fun. I've been flaming in favor of plain text, but I must admit that t's fun to mess around with all the latest multi-media stuff. As a hobby that's great. Unfortunately, many companies go that route with their Web sites, when the audience is still very small.
Lune E tun: Real audio is garbage compared to real time midi
PC Robin: Lune.. haven't encountered that yet. Where should I look?
Lune E tun: Real time midi is much lower bandwidth with much better quality sound ........ depending on your sound card
Pam Bytes: Marge, Richard, I just did a non-profit site basically from the same brochure I made for them... can you look and tell me what you would consider ineffective? Or good?:) http://www.ggrafx.com/arts/index.html Actuall, I thought it converted well....
Richard Seltzer: Pam -- What's your email address so I can get back to you on that?
Pam Bytes: pambytes@tgn.net
Lune E tun: Robin check out the live update site
PC Robin: Live update site?
Lune E tun: the problem with plain text pages is that most people have such short attention spans .....these days
Richard Seltzer: Lune -- But the power of search is tremendous -- the number of folks who find my pages by search at AltaVista etc.
Lune E tun: true but how many hang around to read them ?
Richard Seltzer: About 2-3 old friends per week find me by searching for themselves (that's usually the first thing people search for.) They're mentioned on my pages so they stumble into me. I also have a list of every book I've read for the last 38 years, so anybody searching for any of those titles or authors is likely to stumble across my site as well.
Pam Bytes: Richard, I have Meta Tags with description, keywords etc. So how does one get up from #1000 on the search engines lists? Make that #10000:)
Richard Seltzer: Pam -- Make sure that your main identifiers are in your HTML title and in the first few word words of text. Those are the things that most affect the ranking.
Pam Bytes: But if every one does that then I am still in the same position.
Richard Seltzer: Pam -- For now, not many people do that -- most give their pages irrelevant throw-away names, and put meaningless graphics with irrelevant associated text at the top of the page.
PCC Marge: Pam, try repeating the most important keyword a few times. That seems to help somewhat (at least on the things I search for)
Lune E tun: or you could just find all the sites ahead of you in line and arrange for them to have an... accident
Pam Bytes: (you are a bad boy! How much do you charge for "accidents?")
Richard Seltzer: Believe me if you simply state what you are about in clear English, you will stand out from the crowd.
PCC Joel: The biggest problem with the WEB is that they allow everyone on it...:))))
PCC Marge: I've seen some sites that use lines of text that is just keywords as the first few lines-like a graphic. Shows up at the top of the search list
Pam Bytes: These would be from Meta Tags Marge?
PCC Marge: Sometimes, not necessarily. I don't remember what the site was, but every page had the same keywords at the top - and every page came up on the search list!
Richard Seltzer: Marge -- Yes, that could work. But then the "descriptor" that comes up with your page as a match looks rather unattractive, whereas clear statements can be grabbers.
Lune E tun: I guess the sensible way would be to break your stuff down into smaller subcatagories that way your search result would show up on a smaller list
PCC Joel: Richard, ...won't the addition of JAVA raise the plain and force folks to make more interesting sites in the future?
Richard Seltzer: Joel -- Maybe in three years when high bandwidth is cheap and common. For now, Java is just a toy for technies to play with as a hobby. The bulk of Web users just can't access that stuff yet. You have to adapt as the user base and the technology evolves -- but think first of the user and second of the technology. Too many sites think of technology first and lose sight of serving an audience.
Pam Bytes: I hate Java, and Shockwave...takes forever to load. haven't seen anything worth waiting for yet.
Lune E tun: well once everybody has high bandwidth then Java won't be a novelty any more either
Richard Seltzer: Lune -- Yes, once everybody has high bandwidth -- my guess is that that's 3-5 years out. So it's fun to play with today, and those skills could get you jobs. But people trying to design effective Web sites should avoid the temptation for now -- that's lots of investment, lots of time, and very little payback.
PCC Marge: But if you're trying to show what you can do - you have to play with the technology
Pam Bytes: I'm sorry Marge, but that would not fit in with my idea of an attractive site.
Richard Seltzer: Marge -- Yes, if the purpose of your Web site is to advertise the fact that you have Web-publishing technical skills -- then do it all. But most sites are trying to serve/build an audience and they, for the most part don't need that.
PCC Joel: Let's turn to more more area..how do folks make money on the Web?.... Richard
Pam Bytes: Joel, for the amount of time that I have been on the web (since Dec95), my business has become very successful. I think there is money to be made here.
Lune E tun: Personally I like cool graphics optimized to load quickly and a nice midi sound track ..... make for the most enjoyable browsing experience. all that other stuff just takes too damn long to load
Richard Seltzer: Lune -- That stuff is coming along remarkably fast. I like ShockWave. I like RealAudio. I like the Internet Phone. They are neat. They are fun to demo. But for a real Web site today they really aren't needed and only can be accessed by a small percentage of the potential users.
Lune E tun: Brsamiz try Crescendo it's mucg better than real audio very low bandwidth
Richard Seltzer: Lune -- What's the URL for Crescendo? thanks. But remember, even with very efficient use of bandwidth, many Web folks don't havemulti-media PCs, and can't really do much, if anything, with audio and video. Today.
Lune E tun: True Brsam but thats their problem not mine
Richard Seltzer: Pam -- Yes, there is money to be made on the Web today -- and key to that is focusing on the needs of today's users and not getting suckered into spending far more on your site than necessary. Decide what your audience really needs and do what every you can as efficiently as you can to provide that.
PCC Joel: Richard, ..unfortunately most Web sites don't have enough to say to merit all kinds of fancy stuff.
PCC Marge: I think most people accessing the web DO have multimedia PCs - they have at least a 14.4 modem, probably a decent 486 or Mac
PCC Joel: I agree with Marge...
Lune E tun: Pam the key is suckering others into spending way more on their sites than they need too
Richard Seltzer: Lune -- If you are just a hobbyist or just showing off your technical skills, you don't need to care about your audience. But if you are running a business, you do.
PCC Marge: There are lots of old computers out there, mostly used at work, not for the web
Richard Seltzer: Marge -- Less than half have multimedia PCs. And 14.4 is very slow for dealing with complex graphics and multimedia -- that take so long to download that it's more a nuisance than a benefit. When the whole world is at 56K or maybe even 10 Mbit (with cable access) it will be a very different ball game.
Pam Bytes: I just trimmed several hundred dollars off of a clients proposal by trimming pages off that he thought he needed. He didn't, and he needed a fast loading site for his audience. I do try to tell when that is important:)
Richard Seltzer: Yes, Pam, there are lots of older PC and terminals in schools, in companies and in countries outside the US. Lots of people are technologically challenged when it comes to receiving multimedia over the WEb. It's fun. DO it for the fun of it. But realize that that's a very differnet matter from running a business.
PCC Joel: Hmmm...at 56K you'll hear what I have to say before I even think of it. :DDD
Lune E tun: Thats why you need cool buttons to click on and stuff to get the attention of the computationally challenged
Pam Bytes: A lot of those areas will always be in that position. We just need to provide text only readable sites. We can't hold back too much waiting for the world at large to catch up... it never will.
Richard Seltzer: Pam -- Right on target.
Richard Seltzer: Pam -- Often at a large company the Web master is using a UNIX workstation and has virtually unlimited bandwidth at his/her disposal and uses a system like that to demo to the higher ups. And nobody in the loop stops to consider what it's going to be like for the poor Joe out there with a three-year old PC and a 14.4 modem (or even 9600).
Lune E tun: the other thing to consider is that people with a 386 and a 14.4 modem might not be.... your target market either.
PCC Joel: <---has 14.4...and I buy everything from everybody! :DDDD
Lune E tun: needs to get his cheap ass to the store and upgrade
PCC Joel: Lune...why? Computers are not the only thing in the world.
PCC Marge: I side with Lune - and Joel :D
Richard Seltzer: Lune -- If you are in the business of selling software and other goodies to people with multimedia PCs, then of course you are right. But most businesses aren't aiming at such a narrow audience.
Pam Bytes: LOL:) very funny Lune. Not real practical, but funny.
Lune E tun: relax it was a joke
PCC Joel: The Web is a source of information...it shouldn't cause you to go broke.
Richard Seltzer: Joel -- Amen. Information. Content. That's what the Web can provide cheaply and in abundance. Trying to turn it into a pseudo-TV set is difficult and expensive. So (if you are trying to make a business work) why not roll the rocks downhill instead of breaking your back (and your bankroll) trying to push them uphill? I see that it's 11 PM. Does that mean we all turn into pumpkins?
If anyone would like to continue the discussion by email I'm at seltzer@samizdat.com and my URL is http://www.samizdat.com/
Thanks, everyone. This has been fun.
Richard Seltzer: Joel -- Amen.
Pam Bytes: Night Richard, it has been a great discussion. Enjoyed it:)
Richard Seltzer: Hope I didn't make too much of a nuisance of myself. (I am opinionated.)
PCC Joel: Br...opinions can't hurt. :)
Richard Seltzer: I have to run now. Thanks for inviting me. Richard
PCC Marge: It's great to hear other points of view
PC Robin: Thanks for being with us tonight Richard! :)
Return to B&R Samizdat Express home page . Published by B&R Samizdat Express, 33 Gould St., West Roxbury, MA 02132. (617) 469-2269. seltzer@samizdat.com
<
| Internet Business Showcase: | |||
Dog Training and Pet Care Veterinary, Dog/Cat Veterinarians |
Viatical Settlements RFID Tags, RFID Readers Link Popularity & Link Exchanges |
Hair Restoration for Hair Loss Hair Restoration Plastic Surgery & Surgeons |
Used Cars Guide Homecoming & Prom Dresses Dropship & Wholesale Sources |